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Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Rhiannon » Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:49 pm

Neptuno wrote:
Flex wrote:
Neptuno wrote:with the Shield Slam vs ShoR damage levels, I'm curious about Shield Block and Heavy Repercussions since SB has a good uptime vs our Sacred Duty proc... to me, it seems like proc to increase chance to crit < always double damage during on use period


I doubt it because at worst they perform 2 Double Damage Shield Slams and at best just 4. The benefit of theirs is of course being ondemand but for that we have Avenging Wrath.


20% more damage on everything sure... uptime is 16%. Shield Block while double on 1 move is 33% up time (10s every 30), so yeah with good rng on sword and board, thats 8/minute at double damage vs ours having only about 6 per minute total with a proc to maybe crit on some of them... and only 2 would be increased by wings. then warriors have Inner Rage (15% damage buff 50% rage cost increase, 15s duration) so when being punched and getting their rage up at max, they can pop this before a SS for 15% damage buff (though the rage cost means they'll drop below 75 each time). I don't see our Avenging Wrath being the "on demand response" to Heavy Repercussions... they have several damage modifiers we don't (hence why prot pvp was good for warriors more than pallys pre-4.0), add in that their threat was strong enough to be nerfed as well, it makes me still wonder how their shield attack measures up against ours since their modifier to it's damage is stronger.


I'm not sure I see the point of comparing one ability from one class' rotation to another in isolation. That's like saying locks and fire mages can never be balanced unless fireball hits for the same damage as incinerate.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Flex » Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:14 pm

Neptuno wrote:it makes me still wonder how their shield attack measures up against ours since their modifier to it's damage is stronger.


And ours hits harder naturally.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Neptuno » Sun Oct 31, 2010 11:25 pm

Flex wrote:
Neptuno wrote:it makes me still wonder how their shield attack measures up against ours since their modifier to it's damage is stronger.


And ours hits harder naturally.


Yeah base damage is a fair amount above theirs... but that doesn't mean we're hitting for more over the course of beyond the single move on one occasion.

The coefficient for Shield of the Righteous was lowered from 120% to 60% at 3 Holy Power. The coefficient for Shield Slam was lowered from 75% to 60% (so same AP scaling). However, Shield Slam base damage has been increased to 1871-1967 and they are casting it 10 times without procs from Sword and Board (so probably 12-15 realistically) where if we cast one at "0s" via DP, we can hit 7.

The "base damage," even if you round it so we're double on that, AP scaling will more than make theirs hit for more than half... then with Shield Block up, it hits at least the same as ours if not more (double ours if SB + crit) hence the purpose of the looking at Sacred Duty which sometimes makes hit harder for a spell that is only used half as often. Looking at the uptime numbers for Shield Block, they'll probably match our ShoR damage with the SB values 5 times per minute (assuming that AP scaling doesn't seriously factor in)... so we have 2 stronger hits vs their remaining 12 normal hits. Without considering crit, thats about 8 extra half-ShoR of damage they put out. If we assume 4 of our 7 have Sacred Duty (generous since using Divine Plea means one can't have a judge), then we're looking at it evening out.

I've made it simple because I don't have warrior parses or figures on how much base crit either tank would have at 85 with normal gear, but I think Sacred Duty procs making ShoR do "double damage" would probably be a better balance between the 2 classes since a crit during SB is greatly going to exceed the normal ShoR.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Darielle » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:57 am

You seem to be overlooking that one is physical and one is magic.

Not that this discussion has any meaning since it's literally comparing one ability to another ability. It has nothing to do with "balance between two classes", because balance doesn't hinge around the two abilities alone.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:39 am

Neptuno wrote:I've made it simple because I don't have warrior parses or figures on how much base crit either tank would have at 85 with normal gear, but I think Sacred Duty procs making ShoR do "double damage" would probably be a better balance between the 2 classes since a crit during SB is greatly going to exceed the normal ShoR.


fwiw, my premade has something like 3.something% crit.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Neptuno » Mon Nov 01, 2010 11:23 pm

Darielle wrote:You seem to be overlooking that one is physical and one is magic.

Not that this discussion has any meaning since it's literally comparing one ability to another ability. It has nothing to do with "balance between two classes", because balance doesn't hinge around the two abilities alone.


well, armor interaction isn't that critical unless you expect the bosses to armor capped. their proc talents are stronger mostly because they can utilize them much more often than we can. i'd like to see something that doesn't defeat the implementation of holy power, but id rather see our rotations be more dynamic.
its not a requirement that we have a proc that resets a CD or "lights up" a button, but it would be nice to see that our effective CD finisher thats 50% longer or more than most other tank abilities come in even on DPS over the course of several CD lengths. It doesn't seem like it is currently unless we just get really lucky on Sacred Duty procs. I'll see if I can come up with parses of other tank classes to compare, but I'd expect our signature move to rank at similar dps to parallel moves for other tanks or I'll just glyph CS and WoG it up...
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Darielle » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:07 am

Neptuno wrote:
well, armor interaction isn't that critical unless you expect the bosses to armor capped. their proc talents are stronger mostly because they can utilize them much more often than we can. i'd like to see something that doesn't defeat the implementation of holy power, but id rather see our rotations be more dynamic.
its not a requirement that we have a proc that resets a CD or "lights up" a button, but it would be nice to see that our effective CD finisher thats 50% longer or more than most other tank abilities come in even on DPS over the course of several CD lengths. It doesn't seem like it is currently unless we just get really lucky on Sacred Duty procs. I'll see if I can come up with parses of other tank classes to compare, but I'd expect our signature move to rank at similar dps to parallel moves for other tanks or I'll just glyph CS and WoG it up...


Ignoring that passing off armor as "not that critical" is lol in itself:
That seems like a completely pointless waste of time and effort on their end to balance abilities based on their cooldown versus another class' cooldown and then go around rebalancing the entire class again. Different classes being different means that different abilities will make up different portions of their overall, even if two abilities can be considered analogues. A Paladin's Shield Slam hitting for more or less or doing more or less dps than a Warrior's is irrelevant when it's the overall class that matters.

That's why it also doesn't matter whether Heroic Strike does more or less dps than Maul. Or whether Mangle hits harder than Shield Slam. I have no idea why this is your concern, especially since the dps or damage that ShoR does versus Shield Slam or Mangle or what have you has no bearing on a choice to "glyph CS and WoG it up".
Last edited by Darielle on Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby sherck » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:15 am

Flex wrote:Short answer: AD is still the most OP cooldown in the game.


Actually, I think Guardian Spirit is the most OP CD in the game. The +40% bonus healing might actually prevent the tank death but if it does not, then a 50% heal? And if the death prevention is not used, the glyph lets you reset the CD to only 1 min?

that and LifeGrip might be the 2 reasons that I will level my Holy Priest 2nd to 85 after my Pally.

But AD might be the most OP cooldown in the game possessed by a tank.

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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Flex » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:57 am

Neptuno wrote:well, armor interaction isn't that critical unless you expect the bosses to armor capped.


wut. If you are worried about damage over time then you are very concerned about armor interaction.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Dantriges » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:18 am

The glyph is gone now. The new GS glyph reduces the 3 minute cd by 30 seconds now.

I can understand that peopleare concerned. Atm the whole rotation feels like build up HoPo for Shor, the rest doesn´t matter so much. It´s a little bit strange if shield slam does the same, but don´t know if shield slam has more or less the same rank for arriors.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Neptuno » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:13 pm

Darielle wrote:Ignoring that passing off armor as "not that critical" is lol in itself


well, do you have armor figures for 88 raid bosses? in the BC, void reaver had 50% reduction which was very high, most are around 40% and in wrath at least some bosses were verified at those levels. this does bring figures closer, but 25% armor reduction was expected in development between warrior and druid debuffs being applied., so unless they just plan to have all bosses mitigate more physical damage than in the past (thus buffing casters), they will reduce boss armor DR% accordingly. when we're talking about possibly 4 of our attacks more in extra damage, applying armor brings it down some, but the AP coefficients were also omitted in my example... partly because the relative improvement as AP increases favors the attack more often with the same 60% of AP adding to the damage. i estimated this increased value added to Shield Slam would be canceled out by the armor, but adding in BC/WotLK levels does even out the moves some: we do more damage at extremely low levels of AP but fall behind by as much as 25% by the 3k AP mark... with the way that vengeance scales up our AP to over 10k, i concede that i did over-estimate armor's impact even when i said it wasn't that critical... it's even less critical at raid level stats with the information available.

I do recognize that other attacks' buffs and nerfs can even this out some, but that's the entire reason I asked the question of whether anybody had a parse of warrior, so I could look into the changes to us and see where our CS/filler measure to Mangle/Maul or HS/Cleave. They've been evening out the AP coefficients for our "similar moves" so I don't understand why you wouldn't want to look at each one and see how the picture adds up overall afterward? Without a parse, theoretical calculations are easier to compare this way to me... I'm sorry that my wondering about something + asking for data is so off-putting to you, but I wish you had the decency to do the same before laughing and disregarding if I don't paste a big string of matlab code.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Tantrim » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:57 pm

Neptuno wrote:but I'd expect our signature move to rank at similar dps to parallel moves for other tanks or I'll just glyph CS and WoG it up...

Wasnt avengers shield our signature move? I thought they claimed that.. Its like our perk move for being prot, shield of the righteous is just another talent or something [edit:] shield slam is similarly warriors perk for being prot i believe
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Thornir » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:58 pm

Neptuno wrote:I do recognize that other attacks' buffs and nerfs can even this out some, but that's the entire reason I asked the question of whether anybody had a parse of warrior, so I could look into the changes to us and see where our CS/filler measure to Mangle/Maul or HS/Cleave. They've been evening out the AP coefficients for our "similar moves" so I don't understand why you wouldn't want to look at each one and see how the picture adds up overall afterward? Without a parse, theoretical calculations are easier to compare this way to me... I'm sorry that my wondering about something + asking for data is so off-putting to you, but I wish you had the decency to do the same before laughing and disregarding if I don't paste a big string of matlab code.


But that's the whole point. Don't compare abilities. Paladins != Warriors.

I'm gonna pull random numbers out here, but this is just meant as an example, so bear with me.

Let's say ShoR does 500 DPS. Now Let's say Shield Slam does 1k. Now, again, let's say that, in a theoretical model, both Paladins and Warriors do 6k TPS. You're saying "ShoR < SS." Darielle is saying "But we both do 6k, so it doesn't matter."

I, and I assume others, use the term "Holy Shield Slam" as loosely as possible. They may seem similar, but don't behave the same. At all. They are very different abilities. If Shield of Righteousness was EXACTLY like Shield Slam and Cleave was EXACTLY like HotR and CS was EXACTLY like HS, then that's a little too much homogenization for my taste.

The balance comes from the overall picture. Say "My AoE TPS is low compared to other classes" and not "Shockwave doesn't do enough damage." The times of BC are long gone where AoE/Single Target rotations are limited to 1-2 buttons.

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Now, you do ask for parses, of which I can't give, as my warrior is only 63, but I'm sure there's some data floating around Tankspot/EJ/the OF.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Malthrax » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:54 am

Tantrim wrote:
Neptuno wrote:but I'd expect our signature move to rank at similar dps to parallel moves for other tanks or I'll just glyph CS and WoG it up...

Wasnt avengers shield our signature move? I thought they claimed that.. Its like our perk move for being prot, shield of the righteous is just another talent or something [edit:] shield slam is similarly warriors perk for being prot i believe


Paladin tanks don't *have* a "signature move"; they've never had a signature move, and Blizzard has never made that claim. That concept is something completely made-up by the community as a means to prevent one or more abilities from being nerfed or removed in the past.

We have several gimmics - high percentage of unresistable/unmitigateable holy damage, 100% damage mitigation cooldown, instant full heal cooldown - but, while they could be considered class-defining abilities, they aren't spec-specific signature abilities.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:11 am

Malthrax wrote:Paladin tanks don't *have* a "signature move"; they've never had a signature move, and Blizzard has never made that claim. That concept is something completely made-up by the community as a means to prevent one or more abilities from being nerfed or removed in the past.

We have several gimmics - high percentage of unresistable/unmitigateable holy damage, 100% damage mitigation cooldown, instant full heal cooldown - but, while they could be considered class-defining abilities, they aren't spec-specific signature abilities.


qft x1000.


IMO our signature move is Judgement of Fury and I have been pissed for 5 years that they removed it! /sarcasm
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