Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby towelliee » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:10 pm

I know but WOTLK has corrupted the minds of many players including Druid Tanks / DPS who lol at Heroics / Tanks who LOL at Heroics / etc.

I"m just saying there is no way Bear tanks never use to gloat about their HP. Every Bear tank I know always goes into bear form and I hear the following "Hey Towelliee look my HP man"
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Neptuno » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:45 pm

Darielle wrote:
towelliee wrote:This is kind of stupid I'm sorry. But Bears are Bears BECAUSE of their HP pool. It's them. It's their personality. /shapeshift Bear Form BAM everyone goes DAMNNNN. Now all Bear tanks might as well just re-roll something like DK.


"I HAVE MORE HEALTH THAN EVERYONE" doesn't work as an identity unless it comes with disadvantages. And making them take more damage to offset that has a bunch of its own issues. It's probably a good thing that Blizzard didn't try to preserve that flavour.


they had the disadvantage of the longer CD damage reduction... so wtf is "we want each class to be unique" then "we are making all CDs the same and all HP pools the same"?
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby d503 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:57 am

Neptuno wrote:
Darielle wrote:
towelliee wrote:This is kind of stupid I'm sorry. But Bears are Bears BECAUSE of their HP pool. It's them. It's their personality. /shapeshift Bear Form BAM everyone goes DAMNNNN. Now all Bear tanks might as well just re-roll something like DK.


"I HAVE MORE HEALTH THAN EVERYONE" doesn't work as an identity unless it comes with disadvantages. And making them take more damage to offset that has a bunch of its own issues. It's probably a good thing that Blizzard didn't try to preserve that flavour.


they had the disadvantage of the longer CD damage reduction... so wtf is "we want each class to be unique" then "we are making all CDs the same and all HP pools the same"?


I always thought bear health and mitigation was only higher as compensation for them not having block or parry. But then they got block in WotLK, and their dodge was always astronomical.

Either way, no more bears bragging about health pools makes me a happy panda. ;)
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Ryyu » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:14 am

Whats the Agility>dodge conversion for bears like on beta?
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Darielle » Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:01 am

they had the disadvantage of the longer CD damage reduction... so wtf is "we want each class to be unique" then "we are making all CDs the same and all HP pools the same"?


Because it still left Bears too powerful and the entire situation unbalancable.

They couldn't get away with making Bears gods the entire time because of a long cooldown on their shield wall. That situation would have been ridiculous. It WAS ridiculous. Bears had too much health and were taking too little damage. That's not a perk to preserve in the name of flavour. The numbers weren't making the class unique, they were making it godly. Numbers shouldn't be the thing that makes a class unique or gives them their identity anyway. Bear "flavour" is in things like Dodging more instead of Parrying, being oriented around Bleeds and consuming their bleeds and refreshing them to maintain Pulv and Lacerate at the same time, powershifting to be unsnareable and so on. That's not going away.

Bears still have "more health" after this change. The difference is that instead of having a clear WTF amount of HP over everyone, the difference will be 1.1*1.06 compared to 1.15. That's negligible enough to not upset the balance.

Paladins and Warriors were closer to the mark that they wanted tanks to be going into this first tier. So they brought Bears down to be on par. They're also thinking of what to do with Death Knights. Now they can also bring boss damage down to the levels they want it to be at, which means their healing paradigm will also play out closer to where they want THAT, which makes tanks function closer to the way they want THAT.

Are we really going to complain about everything? Cause that's basically what it seems like. We're actually reaching some semblance of balance going into 4.0.3 FFS.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby towelliee » Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:54 am

I'm with some of the other posters. I think feeling unique is pretty much gone form tanking. Now it's just "which tank do I personally like"

Next thing you know Warriors Bears and DK's will be given a Raid Wall like DG.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Noradin » Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:11 am

towelliee wrote:I'm with some of the other posters. I think feeling unique is pretty much gone form tanking. Now it's just "which tank do I personally like"

Next thing you know Warriors Bears and DK's will be given a Raid Wall like DG.

And it would be baseline ;)
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Yelena » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:10 am

towelliee wrote:Next thing you know Warriors Bears and DK's will be given a Raid Wall like DG.

Guardian Shout/Roar (and insert some stupid Death Knighty sounding name to round out the set): All party or raid members within 30 yards, excluding the <casting class>, take 20% reduced damage for 6 sec.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Passionario » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:16 am

towelliee wrote:This is kind of stupid I'm sorry. But Bears are Bears BECAUSE of their HP pool. It's them. It's their personality. /shapeshift Bear Form BAM everyone goes DAMNNNN. Now all Bear tanks might as well just re-roll something like DK.

The original ProtWarrior flavor was "being the only real tank in the game". Maybe they should bring it back. :roll:
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Dantriges » Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:46 am

They probably can´t keep a pretty powerful raid cd in the hands of one class only but we will see.

I wonder if they cut the number of cds for DKs, too, after slaughtering one big sacred cow of tank design.

Probably was necessary because of the higher amount of stats on items. The gap widened more and more.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Malthrax » Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:26 am

towelliee wrote:Now it's just "which tank do I personally like"


This is a "Good Thing(tm)".
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:16 am

Passionario wrote:
towelliee wrote:This is kind of stupid I'm sorry. But Bears are Bears BECAUSE of their HP pool. It's them. It's their personality. /shapeshift Bear Form BAM everyone goes DAMNNNN. Now all Bear tanks might as well just re-roll something like DK.

The original ProtWarrior flavor was "being the only real tank in the game". Maybe they should bring it back. :roll:


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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby d503 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:56 am

What a horrible design that we must choose our tanking class based on its gameplay's appeal, and not how OP it is compared to other tank classes or some bizarre niche...

You'd think, if anything, Paladins would appreciate alignment of tank classes more than any of the tanks...I guess we don't have too many BC-era Tankadins posting ITT :(

Even without bears taking less damage, the simple concepts of EH will lead us to seeing Bears as the best progression tank. They were able to achieve the highest health pools, with the best armor mitigation, and respectable, frequent cooldowns. Throw their overpowered mastery on top of it, and you have your go-to tank for all progression 4.0.x content.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby steadypal » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:18 am

i know they are trying to normalize the tanking CD's,,, i'd really LOVE to have last stand as a paladin: :P
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby d503 » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:29 am

steadypal wrote:i know they are trying to normalize the tanking CD's,,, i'd really LOVE to have last stand as a paladin: :P


I think AD is better, more interesting, fun, and requires a bit of insight, talent and awareness to execute appropriately.

Last Stand is nice, but kinda boring...
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