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Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby PsiVen » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:43 pm

Well, that's pretty much the nail in the coffin for Prot PvP viability for this expansion. The only niche we had was burst with Vengeance up, which wasn't intended so of course it went away.

It feels really strange that they don't recognize as a problem that Prot Warriors are PvP machines while Paladins only get half-assed Ret-only fixes to problems which are very much shared.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby pyrrhician » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:00 pm

I'm imagining that sometime in the future they will tweak vengeance in such a way that it stacks up faster with little hits/just in heroics.

Can anyone remember the percent of the real dps's dps that we are supposed to be doing now?
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:02 pm

seigert wrote:They may get this right. But they also may think, that many-many new or unexperienced players, which do not read knaughty's F.A.Q.s or your matlab threads and conclusions will "intuitively" think that "ShoR+Inq overlap" is a threat increase. And will be wronged.


Well, I'm being a bit tongue-in-cheek here.

I don't think that blizzard bases their balancing decisions upon players who underperform because they're uninformed. And I think it's even less likely that they understand the mechanics but decided to "make up" a fake excuse to give to the public.

It takes 30 seconds to work out the math I showed above. It's all algebra, there's nothing difficult about it. That means that either:
1) They haven't worked it out, and still think it's a problem
2) They have worked it out, but are giving a fake excuse instead of just saying "we don't want Holy Power generation to be that fast"

I have trouble believing that nobody working on our class is smart enough to have done the calculation. I'm sure somebody has. But apparently the people who interface with the public aren't aware of it, or else they think that it's worth giving a fake explanation that will fool the vast majority of players (and thus looking stupid to anyone with basic math skills) to avoid having to justify the current rate of Holy Power generation.

Which is weird to me. We don't need faster Holy Power generation, really. Nine seconds feels about right, and in the end they'll balance all of our abilities so we're doing the DPS they want us to anyway. I'm not sure why they don't just say that though. It's not like they'll get more or less QQ because of it, they'll just get the same amount of QQ about other random things that people don't like.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby steadypal » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:06 pm

i dont get how blizz is so worried about inquis and shield slam usage, when beta first came out, u can either shield slam and proc holy shield, or inquisition and get no holy shield.. why cant they just make it so, if u inquis, then u cant shield slam until inquis buff wears off etc.. shouldnt be that hard for them to do...

QQ shield slam is so weak now, im a sad panda...
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Dantriges » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:06 pm

theckhd wrote:I have trouble believing that nobody working on our class is smart enough to have done the calculation. I'm sure somebody has.


I believe it. Just look at how much stupid stuff gets done by governments and corporations where any sane person would say OMG didn´t they see it coming, don´t they see the mistakes they do? Never played a game where youthought "What were they thinking?"

Probably the guy or guys who did the math just thought, Why bother, boss will see it sometime in the future when actual live raid data comes in and went home to wife and kids.

This is MMO game design, stupid things happen. I think most people here know at leat half a dozen things in every MMO they played that seemed to be just stupid.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Steve » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:22 pm

theckhd wrote:I have trouble believing that nobody working on our class is smart enough to have done the calculation. I'm sure somebody has.


I'm pretty sure they don't balance this way. Ability tweaks are the result of internal build/ptr/beta data collection.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby seigert » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:23 pm

Here are a few additional changes we are making which will be applied in patch 4.0.3a:
  • Guardian of Ancient Kings -- Damage reduction changed from 60% to 50%. Cooldown still 2 minutes (talented). Duration still 12 seconds.

  • Icebound Fortitude -- Damage reduction changed from 30% to 20% (or 60% to 50% talented). Cooldown still 2 minutes. Duration still 12 seconds.

  • Shield Wall -- Damage reduction changed from 40% to 50%. Cooldown still 2 minutes (talented). Duration still 12 seconds.

  • Glyph of Shield Wall -- Now buffs damage reduction by 10% (to 60%), but only adds 1 minute of cooldown.

  • Survival Instincts -- Damage reduction changed from 60% to 50%. Cooldown reduced from 5 minutes to 2 minutes. Duration still 12 seconds.

  • Bear Form -- Stamina bonus lowered from 20% to 10% and Heart of the Wild health bonus from 10% to 6%. Bear health should be close to plate tank health with this change.

  • Vigilance -- No longer reduces damage by 3%, but will still reset Taunt cooldown and provide Vengeance for the warrior.


http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... &pageNo=10
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby towelliee » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:35 pm

seigert wrote:
Here are a few additional changes we are making which will be applied in patch 4.0.3a:
  • Guardian of Ancient Kings -- Damage reduction changed from 60% to 50%. Cooldown still 2 minutes (talented). Duration still 12 seconds.

  • Icebound Fortitude -- Damage reduction changed from 30% to 20% (or 60% to 50% talented). Cooldown still 2 minutes. Duration still 12 seconds.

  • Shield Wall -- Damage reduction changed from 40% to 50%. Cooldown still 2 minutes (talented). Duration still 12 seconds.

  • Glyph of Shield Wall -- Now buffs damage reduction by 10% (to 60%), but only adds 1 minute of cooldown.

  • Survival Instincts -- Damage reduction changed from 60% to 50%. Cooldown reduced from 5 minutes to 2 minutes. Duration still 12 seconds.

  • Bear Form -- Stamina bonus lowered from 20% to 10% and Heart of the Wild health bonus from 10% to 6%. Bear health should be close to plate tank health with this change.

  • Vigilance -- No longer reduces damage by 3%, but will still reset Taunt cooldown and provide Vengeance for the warrior.


WOW. I did not see the bear HP nerf coming at ALL. And what does Vigilance mean now by "provides Vengeance"
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Flex » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:46 pm

towelliee wrote:WOW. I did not see the bear HP nerf coming at ALL. And what does Vigilance mean now by "provides Vengeance"


Current Vigi: 3% damage reduction to Vigi target, taunt refresh and any damage sustained by the vigi target will grant the warrior vengeance.

They're jsut removing the 3% damage reduction part.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Darielle » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:48 pm

WOW. I did not see the bear HP nerf coming at ALL. And what does Vigilance mean now by "provides Vengeance"


Vigilance already provides Vengeance on live:
Vigilance
30 yd range
Instant
Focus your protective gaze on a group or raid target, reducing their damage taken by 3%. In addition, each time they are hit by an attack your Taunt cooldown is refreshed and you gain Vengeance as if 20% of the damage was done to you. Lasts 30 min. This effect can only be on one target at a time.

The note was that it could continue to keep the Taunt Refresh and Vengeance Gain effects, but the 3% damage reduction to another person was being removed.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Ezharon » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:50 pm

I'd love to be able to cast Vigi on MT and stack Vengeance too when OTing :mrgreen:
Last edited by Ezharon on Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Io.Draco » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:51 pm

Bears got nerfed...that's just WoW.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby towelliee » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:55 pm

This is kind of stupid I'm sorry. But Bears are Bears BECAUSE of their HP pool. It's them. It's their personality. /shapeshift Bear Form BAM everyone goes DAMNNNN. Now all Bear tanks might as well just re-roll something like DK.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Darielle » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:00 pm

towelliee wrote:This is kind of stupid I'm sorry. But Bears are Bears BECAUSE of their HP pool. It's them. It's their personality. /shapeshift Bear Form BAM everyone goes DAMNNNN. Now all Bear tanks might as well just re-roll something like DK.


"I HAVE MORE HEALTH THAN EVERYONE" doesn't work as an identity unless it comes with disadvantages. And making them take more damage to offset that has a bunch of its own issues. It's probably a good thing that Blizzard didn't try to preserve that flavour.
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Re: Cataclysm Beta - Build 13221

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:01 pm

towelliee wrote:This is kind of stupid I'm sorry. But Bears are Bears BECAUSE of their HP pool. It's them. It's their personality. /shapeshift Bear Form BAM everyone goes DAMNNNN. Now all Bear tanks might as well just re-roll something like DK.

In TBC their health wasn't crazy high, I mean their armor was capped by the end of Kara, they could gear to 90% avoidance and tank BT with just 2 healers, but their health was at least reasonable :lol:
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