Word of Glory - OP?

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Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Rasmfrackn » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:05 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:Either WoG is garbage and we don't use it, or it's OP. Why? Because it's not reactive

huh?

What I mean is, it's not a "cooldown" heal in the way that Rune Tap is. It's not independent of our rotation. We have to choose ShoR or WoG every 9 seconds.

I'm with Knaughty on this because we either need ShoR threat or we don't. We're either balanced against healing for (sub either: an amount we value or an amount we don't value) or doing a large amount of our threat.

For now, Towilee is seeing that we don't need ShoR threat at all, so we might as well be WoGing every 9 seconds. It's providing enough healing to make a noticeable difference in the healers' sustainability. If WoG is cut to, say, 1/3 what he's experiencing currently, between talents and removing vengeance scaling, to the point that it's not a noticeable difference in to the healers, then is that still useful enough to lose out on ShoR damage?

Worst case, I would think, is that ShoR isn't needed for threat and WoG isn't a useful heal. Then we have basically nothing worthwhile to spend our combo points on, and we might as well not have them as a resource.
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Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby melisandyr » Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:08 pm

I agree with the above.

It's a very foreseeable problem with giving a "finishing move" style ability to a tank. At one end of the spectrum, one combo point, the ability has to be low impact because it would get too effective in pvp or its use would become brainless.

At the other end of the spectrum, to become a valid choice, the ability has to be powerful enough to be considered an option.

Combined with the way that they've implemented vengeance as a crutch, this magnifies the difference between the non-usefulness and usefulness points. Blizz will keep tuning the heal so that its numbers are useful in both raid (vengeance) or non-raid (non-vengeance) scenarios.

I worry that the design is so clunky that we'll either end up being the very best tanks, or the very worst, depending on where the roulette wheel of tuning stops.

Numbers are a bit of a distraction though, two areas for design improvement:
- vengeance
- range of holy power finishers. If we are going to be using holy power, then this needs to become a proper choice of abilities so that something isn't spammable the entire fight (at the moment seems to oscillate between ShoR or WoG). Posted this once before, but making something situational like shields, improved magic resistance, improved movement speed, heck, maybe give us one ability that when used with three holy power up gives us an off GCD interrupt. More buttons does mean more complicated though.
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Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby rodos » Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:27 pm

melisandyr wrote:- range of holy power finishers. If we are going to be using holy power, then this needs to become a proper choice of abilities so that something isn't spammable the entire fight (at the moment seems to oscillate between ShoR or WoG). Posted this once before, but making something situational like shields, improved magic resistance, improved movement speed, heck, maybe give us one ability that when used with three holy power up gives us an off GCD interrupt. More buttons does mean more complicated though.

From my Ret solo play (dailies, rep grinding, instance soloing), a HoPo sprint would be wicked. If you finish a fight with extra HoPo and your health is low, WoG, otherwise Rocket Boots of the Righteous to the next mob.
(Although judging critters for Long Arm of the Law is pretty hilarious as it is right now.) A sprint for prot would be very useful too, I think, to use like a light version of Charge/Intercept.
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Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Neptuno » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:50 pm

Could always make Sacred Duty our "finish" like druid's pulverize: we can melee crit % for x seconds with the finishing move, thus making ShoR hit harder (with a fixed value 9s CD) as well as our CS and other "melee moves" OR we can hit Inquisition which gives us a holy damage bonus that only affects Holy Wrath/Consecration/HotR AE (or we can WoG and get the tradeoff like Bears get when they Berserk without Pulverize active)
The control factor instead of Lacerate being lower on the priority for bears would just be CS/HotR CD. And Unlike bears, the melee crit's don't cause us to block more like their crits will absorb more and more with Vengeance, so this doesn't seem like a deal breaker for us to crit with melee when it doesn't reduce our damage in.

As for Vengeance, I've yet to see it stack more than 91% and that was on Sindragosa right before an air phase which made it worthless. I'd like to see us gain Vengeance at a rate for how much the we "would have" taken damage before the absorbs or block. It falls off significantly the "better" you gear for tanking.

Finally Holy Power sprint would be amazing... as long as it's not a magic buff... the mages will just steal it with their nearly no mana cost spell steal spam. I would really love to replace the spell steal sound to a gnome voice saying something derogatory toward mage's lack of testicular fortitude (now I feel better...)
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Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Darielle » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:20 pm

They buffed WoG by a lot when they were touching up Holy single target spells. With the GbtL change in this latest build (which they said they were going to do and why last week, or did no one else read that?), they've reduced the effect that change had on Prot.
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Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby towelliee » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:50 am

Getting about 7k less healing on my WoG
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Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Neptuno » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:36 am

Darielle wrote:They buffed WoG by a lot when they were touching up Holy single target spells. With the GbtL change in this latest build (which they said they were going to do and why last week, or did no one else read that?), they've reduced the effect that change had on Prot.


They said there were hotfixing holy paladin's 5 direct heal spells and would likely change prot/ret's talents concerning WoG sure, but where did they say they buffed Word of Glory for how much?

Looking at the results seen on beta, it is still a nerf more than just an adjustment for the other hotfix... a far cry from us "not needing a stronger 'word' as in the blue post:
It is possible we will nerf Word of Glory for Prot and Ret at 85 to compensate for this buff since they probably don't need stronger Words.
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Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Zhuel » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:14 am

towelliee wrote:Getting about 7k less healing on my WoG


7k less than? The 50-60k you were talking about at the beginning of the thread?
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Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Flex » Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:55 am

Neptuno wrote:They said there were hotfixing holy paladin's 5 direct heal spells and would likely change prot/ret's talents concerning WoG sure, but where did they say they buffed Word of Glory for how much?

Looking at the results seen on beta, it is still a nerf more than just an adjustment for the other hotfix... a far cry from us "not needing a stronger 'word' as in the blue post:
It is possible we will nerf Word of Glory for Prot and Ret at 85 to compensate for this buff since they probably don't need stronger Words.


If wowhead's tooltip comparison is to believed.

The old Word of Glory was 1553 to 1729 per charge of Holy Power.
The new Word of Glory is 2018 to 2248 per charge of Holy Power.

The quick and dirty math shows under the old values it was at best 8299 base heal before scaling while the new system is 8767.
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Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Shathus » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:27 am

The important question I want to know is... what is the actual WORD of glory?

Are there paladins running around yelling "PIZZA!" and getting healed? Does it vary by race? Dwarfs saying 'Ale', while Blood Elves say 'hairspray'?

Maybe I have too much free-time....

/derail
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Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Malthrax » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:46 am

Shathus wrote:Dwarfs saying 'Ale', while Blood Elves say 'hairspray'?


... and the Cow goes, "Moooooo!!!"
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Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby kaanman36 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:05 am

Shathus wrote:Dwarfs saying 'Ale', while Blood Elves say 'hairspray'?


This.

It explains why Dwarves own and why Blood Elves are emo in one, concise statement.
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Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:53 am

I would so totally macro in something if it wasn't happening every 9 seconds.

Also, how big are Disc shields at 85? I've seen people remarking that with WoG shield up, Discs were getting "more powerful effect in place" messages.

Stacking AD/GAnK/DP/WoG is a nice keyboard salad.
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Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby towelliee » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:33 pm

The 50-60k was from full stack of vengeance. 20-30k was a normal WoG heal. I am hitting about 10-17k atm I need to log my Nef attempts later,
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Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Darielle » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:37 pm

Neptuno wrote:
Darielle wrote:They buffed WoG by a lot when they were touching up Holy single target spells. With the GbtL change in this latest build (which they said they were going to do and why last week, or did no one else read that?), they've reduced the effect that change had on Prot.


They said there were hotfixing holy paladin's 5 direct heal spells and would likely change prot/ret's talents concerning WoG sure, but where did they say they buffed Word of Glory for how much?

Looking at the results seen on beta, it is still a nerf more than just an adjustment for the other hotfix... a far cry from us "not needing a stronger 'word' as in the blue post:
It is possible we will nerf Word of Glory for Prot and Ret at 85 to compensate for this buff since they probably don't need stronger Words.



For that, you would have to go back to this thread:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... No=1&sid=1

It was a Hotfix applied to live and was around the Blizzcon time so it mostly went overlooked. They never made a post saying exactly how much and afaik MMO didn't make a post with new tooltips but hotfix nonetheless. That said, I have no idea if Beta even got the hotfix, or whatever, but you'd need three reference points before calling it a buff or a nerf - pre-hotfix, post-hotfix and pre-talentchange, post-hotfix and post-talentchange. And you'd probably need that for multiple stat levels.
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