Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:27 pm

Did a not-very-scientific test in Ironforge. The fire there doesn't tick hard enough for this to be conclusive, but:

Normal ticks: Varied 9-14, usually 11-13
With unglyphed Divine Protection: About 8-10 damage ticks
With glyphed Divine Protection: 6-8 damage ticks.

The tooltip still says "Reduces all damage by 0%."

Edit: Tried a few more times. Never seen a tick above 8 with glyphed Divine Protection active, and never seen a tick below 9 without it active.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:13 pm

All of the simulations have been updated on the front page.

Notable changes:
-Gear set added to front page
-Corrected ability damage formulas (including HoW)
-Sub-20% rotations added (ShoR>CS>J>HoW is the winner)
-Crusade down slightly, SotP up slightly
-HotR glyph now sucks (which we knew, but now the sims accurately reflect that)
-CS buff made the CS glyph better
-A bunch of new weapons in the weapon sim
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby knaughty » Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:42 pm

theckhd wrote:All of the simulations have been updated on the front page.

Notable changes:
-Gear set added to front page
-Corrected ability damage formulas (including HoW)
-Sub-20% rotations added (ShoR>CS>J>HoW is the winner)
-Crusade down slightly, SotP up slightly
-HotR glyph now sucks (which we knew, but now the sims accurately reflect that)
-CS buff made the CS glyph better
-A bunch of new weapons in the weapon sim


Noted. Will update FAQ to reflect changes.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kishi » Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:28 am

theckhd wrote:Glyph Comparison

...
Code: Select all
Expertise   SoT Value (relative)
0-16          1
16-26         1-(exp-16)/10
26-46         1/2
46-56         1/2-(exp-46)/10

...


Found a small error while looking through the front page:

Using 16-26 with exp=26 results in a relative value of 1-(26-16)/10 = 0
Using 46-56 with exp=56 results in a relative value of 1/2-(56-46)/10 = -1/2

Changing "/10" to "/20" in both formulae gives correct values for the described behaviour.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Awyndel » Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:40 am

Really nice job with the updates. Really appreciate the weapon graph, it's very clear now. Swapping hotr glyph with CS :D .

One question though. Are we not jumping on the 22 expertise ( 95 rating with glyph ) boat? Or are these graphs for 85?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Magnusharkov » Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:48 am

theckhd wrote:All of the simulations have been updated on the front page.

Notable changes:
-Gear set added to front page
-Corrected ability damage formulas (including HoW)
-Sub-20% rotations added (ShoR>CS>J>HoW is the winner)
-Crusade down slightly, SotP up slightly
-HotR glyph now sucks (which we knew, but now the sims accurately reflect that)
-CS buff made the CS glyph better
-A bunch of new weapons in the weapon sim


Thanks for the outstanding work Theck, it's appreciated!

I don't know if it's within the scope of your simulator but I would be interested to see the results on HPS/DPS and TPS by going for a "Maximum Self Healing" spec and rotation:
Speccing for Gbtl,Eternal Glory,Divinty and importantly Protector of the Innocent
Glyphing WoG and Seal of Insight
Tanking using Seal of Insight
Rotation of simply CSx1, WoGx1, repeat.

The reason I mention this rotation is that as far as I know it's the maximum possible way of self healing as WoG scales linearly with holy power plus you get the poti heal. With EG procs, crits and other buffs I'd expect to see at least an average of 10k self healing every other GCD not including seal of insight.

I know this is a gimmick setup but I'm curious as to how much healing we may be able to do plus quite importantly how much threat all this healing can do!

edit: my napkin maths suggests upwards of 4k healing per second but thats very rough
Last edited by Magnusharkov on Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby AriKT » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:33 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Did a not-very-scientific test in Ironforge. The fire there doesn't tick hard enough for this to be conclusive, but:

Normal ticks: Varied 9-14, usually 11-13
With unglyphed Divine Protection: About 8-10 damage ticks
With glyphed Divine Protection: 6-8 damage ticks.

The tooltip still says "Reduces all damage by 0%."

Edit: Tried a few more times. Never seen a tick above 8 with glyphed Divine Protection active, and never seen a tick below 9 without it active.


All I know was I was eating 63K Soul Reaper DoT Ticks with it glyphed, and about 50K when I removed the glyph.

This was on Saturday, it was working on Friday.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Treck » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:49 am

Soul Reaper is Shadowstrike dmg.
Thus if you reduce your dmg taken from magic sources to much, the SR hit will become physical.
DP glyph for SR is a bad idea.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:02 am

Kishi wrote:
theckhd wrote:Glyph Comparison
Code: Select all
Expertise   SoT Value (relative)
0-16          1
16-26         1-(exp-16)/10
26-46         1/2
46-56         1/2-(exp-46)/10



Found a small error while looking through the front page:

Using 16-26 with exp=26 results in a relative value of 1-(26-16)/10 = 0
Using 46-56 with exp=56 results in a relative value of 1/2-(56-46)/10 = -1/2

Changing "/10" to "/20" in both formulae gives correct values for the described behaviour.


Thanks for catching that typo, I'll go back and fix it shortly.

Awyndel wrote:One question though. Are we not jumping on the 22 expertise ( 95 rating with glyph ) boat? Or are these graphs for 85?

These graphs are for level 80. I've just assumed the "proper" functioning of the expertise formula, figuring that they'll fix the bug sooner or later. I saw a post on EJ last night that it was fixed, but they didn't provide any proof, so who knows.

If it's still bugged, the formulas above will be slightly off, but using (12-22) as the range for the first formula should correct it for most of the cases we're interested in.

Magnusharkov wrote:I don't know if it's within the scope of your simulator but I would be interested to see the results on HPS/DPS and TPS by going for a "Maximum Self Healing" spec and rotation:
Speccing for Gbtl,Eternal Glory,Divinty and importantly Protector of the Innocent
Glyphing WoG and Seal of Insight
Tanking using Seal of Insight
Rotation of simply CSx1, WoGx1, repeat.


I could, but there's very little reason to run a simulation for that system since it's so static. You're literally casting nothing but CS and WoG, and since you're using SoI your only other damage source will be melee attacks.

So your DPS output will simply be (CS damage)/3+(melee dps). You get around 1k DPS from melee swings (954 in the simulations, but that obviously changes with weapon, and for SoI you'd probably want a higher-dps 2.6-speed weapon) and 4715/3 = 1572 DPS from Crusader Strikes. With a slower weapon, you could reasonably reach about 3k DPS (9k TPS) total with just those two sources of damage.

Eternal Glory can be approximated as making each WoG ~30% larger in this system, because if it procs you just get an "extra" WoG out of the next WoG cast. That will be a slight over-estimate since it doesn't account for 3 EG procs in a row (about a 2.7% chance of that occurring).

As for the self-healing, I don't know the WoG healing formula offhand, but you should be able to calculate the average WoG self-heal and the average amount added from PotI. The healing per second would just be

((average WoG)*1.3+(average PotI))/(3 seconds) + (SoI HPS)

SoI HPS should be estimated from parses, or if you know the PPM (I don't offhand) you could calculate out an exact proc rate based on weapon speed.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby AriKT » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:14 am

Treck wrote:Soul Reaper is Shadowstrike dmg.
Thus if you reduce your dmg taken from magic sources to much, the SR hit will become physical.
DP glyph for SR is a bad idea.


Pretty sure my physical damage reduction from armor is more than 40%.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby golfinguy » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:14 am

theckhd wrote:
Awyndel wrote:One question though. Are we not jumping on the 22 expertise ( 95 rating with glyph ) boat? Or are these graphs for 85?

These graphs are for level 80. I've just assumed the "proper" functioning of the expertise formula, figuring that they'll fix the bug sooner or later. I saw a post on EJ last night that it was fixed, but they didn't provide any proof, so who knows.

If it's still bugged, the formulas above will be slightly off, but using (12-22) as the range for the first formula should correct it for most of the cases we're interested in.


The common thinking on EJ is that its not a bug, that it is working much the same way hit is - reduced now and return to well known values at 85. (and that the poster of 'its fixed' was talking out his arse :wink: )

Its not documented like hit though, so its hard to be 100% sure.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby AriKT » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:37 am

AriKT wrote:
Treck wrote:Soul Reaper is Shadowstrike dmg.
Thus if you reduce your dmg taken from magic sources to much, the SR hit will become physical.
DP glyph for SR is a bad idea.


Pretty sure my physical damage reduction from armor is more than 40%.


Looked at the dataset closer. Seems between Friday and Saturday they fixed the DP Glyph to work properly, instead of the bugged 20% physical and 40% magical reduction.

The first part of Reaper is effected by armor and resists, so it was getting a 40% magic reduction, and the second part ignores armor and resists so it was getting the 20% bugged reduction on Friday, but not on Saturday.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby kenshin648 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:46 pm

So does all this mean I should forget my bonebreaker scepter and try to get a good, slow dps weapon?

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:09 pm

kenshin648 wrote:So does all this mean I should forget my bonebreaker scepter and try to get a good, slow dps weapon?

Armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... Emrfishsix


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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby AdaskoTheBeAsT » Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:36 pm

Hi Theck,

could you please add also Quel'Delar, Cunning of the Shadows to analyzed weapons?

Thanks

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Metherlance » Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:22 pm

AdaskoTheBeAsT wrote:Hi Theck,

could you please add also Quel'Delar, Cunning of the Shadows to analyzed weapons?

Thanks

Adasko


I'm not theck, but hopefully my answer will do too. :)

It has values of 8560dps (4% hit, 18 exp) and 9086dps (8% hit, 26 exp). So it comes between Stormpike Cleaver (Heroic) and Remorseless (Heroic) in the pretty graphs.

So it is a great threat weapon indeed.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby AdaskoTheBeAsT » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:36 am

Hi,

thanks :)

I had to ask GM second time to retrieve my Broken Promise back :lol:
there was once such patch when BP was really ahead of many weapons and now history made a circle ;)

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Awyndel » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:26 am

kenshin648 wrote:So does all this mean I should forget my bonebreaker scepter and try to get a good, slow dps weapon?

Armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... Emrfishsix


For threat, yes. But compare the agility and stamina if you want to know about survival. Don't use bladeward for threat though, use accuracy or 65 ap.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Arianne » Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:45 am

GC clarified that the 22 expertise change is not a bug:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 7423&sid=1

GhostCrawler wrote:Due to recalibrating expertise for Cataclysm, level 80-83 creatures (which includes bosses) dodge and parry less, so you need less expertise, 23, to be exact. Sorry we didn't announce this. I would classify it as an unintended consequence (though not unknown) and not a desired change on our part.

At level 85, you will need 26 again.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kuma » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:14 pm

I know it may sound silly, but since Broken Promise ended up high on the charts due to the hit and expertise...

How does The Horseman's Baleful Blade look in comparison? Just curious.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Herrbjorn » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:48 pm

Kuma wrote:I know it may sound silly, but since Broken Promise ended up high on the charts due to the hit and expertise...

How does The Horseman's Baleful Blade look in comparison? Just curious.


I posted this the other day, Theck was nice enough to throw it up on the charts. Does pretty well against ICC level tank weapons.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Kuma » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:51 pm

Herrbjorn wrote:
Kuma wrote:I know it may sound silly, but since Broken Promise ended up high on the charts due to the hit and expertise...

How does The Horseman's Baleful Blade look in comparison? Just curious.


I posted this the other day, Theck was nice enough to throw it up on the charts. Does pretty well against ICC level tank weapons.


Ah, very cool. I didn't notice it in his chart until now. I might have to give it a go and see how many guildies laugh at me :P
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Arianne wrote:GC clarified that the 22 expertise change is not a bug:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 7423&sid=1

GhostCrawler wrote:Due to recalibrating expertise for Cataclysm, level 80-83 creatures (which includes bosses) dodge and parry less, so you need less expertise, 23, to be exact. Sorry we didn't announce this. I would classify it as an unintended consequence (though not unknown) and not a desired change on our part.

At level 85, you will need 26 again.


I saw that, but I don't think it's important enough to rerun all of the calculations just because of this. In the grand scheme of things, it just means that you treat 23 as the soft-cap (though I thought it was closer to 22 based on EJ testing, but whatever). The expertise stat weighting graph just gets a slight axis scaling, but otherwise looks identical.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Chicken » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:37 pm

theckhd wrote:
Arianne wrote:GC clarified that the 22 expertise change is not a bug:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 7423&sid=1

GhostCrawler wrote:Due to recalibrating expertise for Cataclysm, level 80-83 creatures (which includes bosses) dodge and parry less, so you need less expertise, 23, to be exact. Sorry we didn't announce this. I would classify it as an unintended consequence (though not unknown) and not a desired change on our part.

At level 85, you will need 26 again.


I saw that, but I don't think it's important enough to rerun all of the calculations just because of this. In the grand scheme of things, it just means that you treat 23 as the soft-cap (though I thought it was closer to 22 based on EJ testing, but whatever). The expertise stat weighting graph just gets a slight axis scaling, but otherwise looks identical.
It's apparently 5.6% dodge, which is 22.4 expertise. I'd guess Ghostcrawler just used the 23 expertise number as that's what the character screen shows, despite it being the case that expertise rating works even if it doesn't give you extra expertise on the character window.

For anyone curious, the expertise dodge cap should be at 173 expertise rating without the SoT glyph, or at 96 expertise rating with the SoT glyph at level 80 due to this.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Arianne » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:57 pm

I wasn't suggesting re-running the sims, but just updating the front page of this post to remove the note about 22 expertise being a bug on 4.0.1 live.

As a dwarf using a mace and receiving 3 expertise from that, I should only need 96 - 3*7.68 = 73 rating with the SoT glyph?
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