Word of Glory - OP?

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, Sabindeus, PsiVen

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Zhuel » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:53 am

I agree and that's why I am asking here.
Zhuel
 
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed May 20, 2009 7:57 pm

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Flex » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:56 am

- WoG is OP while tanking. How about ablitities like deathstrike and savage defence? Don't these all scale with Atk Power? How much are they healing for or preventing.


Current Death Strike model is based on damage taken in the last 5 seconds or 10% of your health, whichever is higher.

Savage Defense is based on AP.
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 7505
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby towelliee » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:24 am

Zhuel wrote:This post is troublesome. Especially when you combine it with this thread on the offical forums: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 0692&sid=1.

The way Toweliee post makes it sound like Paladin tanks are OP, but it's conflicts with the rest of the thread which basically says Dk>bear>>>Paladin>Warrior. What's really OP here? It almost sounds like vengeance is OP.

Here are the things of note:

- WoG is OP while tanking. How about ablitities like deathstrike and savage defence? Don't these all scale with Atk Power? How much are they healing for or preventing.

- It seems like tank dps is high. Towliee indicates he's in the top 3 while tanking. Is this the case for all tanks that MT and get high vengeance?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH57qC_uGGY

This is the video I was speaking of. Notice how I didn't have to use SOTR at all during the entire fight. And if I did it was because of muscle memory of my new rotation. Honestly not to go off topic my point is simply that WoG is broken. We were saying it is terrible but at the moment it is the best raiding tool on Beta.
towelliee
 
Posts: 1160
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:09 am

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby steadypal » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:50 am

i love how blizz forcefed prot into getting WOG, and now it might be OP and now im waiting for them to nerf it to the ground, LOL
steadypal
 
Posts: 1206
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:28 pm

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby AriKT » Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:49 am

towelliee wrote:
Zhuel wrote:This post is troublesome. Especially when you combine it with this thread on the offical forums: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... 0692&sid=1.

The way Toweliee post makes it sound like Paladin tanks are OP, but it's conflicts with the rest of the thread which basically says Dk>bear>>>Paladin>Warrior. What's really OP here? It almost sounds like vengeance is OP.

Here are the things of note:

- WoG is OP while tanking. How about ablitities like deathstrike and savage defence? Don't these all scale with Atk Power? How much are they healing for or preventing.

- It seems like tank dps is high. Towliee indicates he's in the top 3 while tanking. Is this the case for all tanks that MT and get high vengeance?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NH57qC_uGGY

This is the video I was speaking of. Notice how I didn't have to use SOTR at all during the entire fight. And if I did it was because of muscle memory of my new rotation. Honestly not to go off topic my point is simply that WoG is broken. We were saying it is terrible but at the moment it is the best raiding tool on Beta.


It will most definately be OP if it scales like that with Vengeance AP. However, Live it wasn't as of last week. Wonder if it changed with todays mini patch.
AriKT
 
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:24 pm

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:52 pm

Meh, I can't disagree and it's pretty sad. It was pretty glaringly obvious from the start, when they tried giving us all these different "options" for holy power that just didn't hang together well.

Either WoG is garbage and we don't use it, or it's OP. Why? Because it's not reactive and because it's a "threat tradeoff" for our biggest threat ability, our combo point finisher. I'm still fairly sure they aren't going to be able to balance it to the point where we want to get the WoG talents but only use it "occasionally", or reactively, or however they envision us using a heal that we have a 1 GCD window to use every 9 seconds or replace it with a huge hit that we either need for aggro or we don't.

DS is sort of a reverse WoG (heals the last 5 seconds instead of putting up a 6 second bubble) but as far as i can tell they're not giving up much threat to do it... it sounds like the blood rune abilities are on the verge of just being ignored, and the rotation is just (maybe diseases,) DS and RP dumps. If they were going to force DKs to spend runes on nothing but the heal portion of DS, OR to do damage with them, they'd be in the same precarious situation of making a self-healing tank more viable than ever just like they're in danger of doing with WoG.
Rasmfrackn
Dwarf Paladin
Icecrown Server
Eng/Scribe/Masochist
User avatar
Rasmfrackn
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:11 pm

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Bladesong » Tue Oct 26, 2010 7:16 pm

i love how blizz forcefed prot into getting WOG, and now it might be OP and now im waiting for them to nerf it to the ground, LOL


I love how being offered an option is considered "force fed".


Either WoG is garbage and we don't use it, or it's OP.


If missing one SotR is problematic then threat is over-tuned and your average tank won't be able to do their job. Ideally(tm), an average tank should be able to keep threat, even if they make an occasional mistake, such as hitting SotR with less than 3HP, because this is likely to be a good chunk of the players. A good tank should be able to swap out some of their SotR for WoG without dropping threat - especially in high damage situations where your Vengeance is maxed and you will want extra heals. A great tank should be able to hold on to 3 unspent HP for a few GCD's in order to optimize the timing of WoG.

An untalented WoG will likely not be worth the effort, but a fully talented WoG can be helpful without being OP (it's just numbers). In other words, I'm not sure why I keep seeing this framed as a binary argument where it's either garbage or OP.
User avatar
Bladesong
 
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:58 pm

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby towelliee » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:04 pm

WoG spam in any fight at the moment is over powering. When I can keep myself topped off (while absorbing dmg) without the help of healers in a raid environment it is OP. And not just "normal" heals. We are talking at the moment 30k+ heals more with Vengeance stacked. Even if they remove the Vengeance scaling which they probably will.

If this stays as is with threat and healing, Paladin tanking will take no skill. There will not be a decent/good/great tank difference. Everyone will say eff Sotr and just go 3HP + WoG everytime. For me I have been doing test using full WoG during fights still doing 9-10k dps and then other fights full Sotr doing 13k+. Lately I have just been using WoG when my judgement doesn't proc a Sacred Duty and when it does proc I use Sotr. Honestly it doesn't matter what you do right now as a Prot Paladin, auto swing might hold threat for a fight.

I had a tankadin come to me on beta and say that he just spams crusader strike judgement and AS and doesn't come close to losing threat. We have to be fixed. I love seeing big numbers but at the same time I don't like mindless tanking. And if the current content doesn't challenge me to push harder then it becomes repetitive and boring.
towelliee
 
Posts: 1160
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:09 am

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Navan » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:58 pm

The problem is the Vengeance ability. Not its scaling with WoG or lack there of, but in how in interacts with our threat in massively different ways depending upon damage taken. In a 5man Vengeance is pretty much nonexistent , in raids it maxes out quite quickly multiplied by the fact that encounters last 3 to 4 times longer.

As a base all tanks need to be balanced versus DPS classes in 5mans. If equally geared DPS in 5mans are pulling aggro off a tank then something is wrong. If tanks are balanced in 5mans for threat without Vengeance they will be more or less balanced in 25mans without Vengeance. However in raids you DO get Vengeance which can easily increase your threat by 100% (or more).

This makes threat (once you get past the initial 'amg, I have no vengeance and all the DPS has blown cooldowns' start of the fight) trivial. Once your threat lead is massive there is no incentive to continue using our big threat move, especially when we have a survivability button we could press instead. There are a few times, you save up a 3 HP SHoR for a taunt switch or a new add, but in most tank and spank there is no real reason to.

The only way Blizzard can really solve this is to tune threat so that threat done by DPS classes falls between the TPS rotations of using ShoR and WoG. With Vengeance giving us such an obscene boost to TPS in Raid encounters I don't see how Blizzard can balance the ability without without nerfing Vengeance or making WoG our method of raid tanking and balancing our class around the assumption that we'll be using in constantly. (blarg)

Well that or just make WoG's heal so anemic we don't care about it. I think we all know what option is 'easier'
User avatar
Navan
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:33 am

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby knaughty » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:19 am

I could quote several rants I wrote over a month ago stating that WoG would be almost impossible to balance, but hey, not much point. :evil:
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Neptuno » Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:06 am

wasn't the RF buff also mentioned at being possibly a temporary fix since level 80 is so messed up right now? right now i see many tanks with huge threat issues

at 80, i've not had too many issues other than low rage at start on my bear, but i offset that by having 68% melee crit after pulverize... now how OP is that? my pally ive not tanked that much with, but i easily held threat once MD/Tricks threat fell off in the couple of bosses ive tanked. I'd expect them to just lower the threat modifier back down to 225 or 250% instead of making our dps/healing numbers change.

also, if you consider our mastery vs the absorb classes that BOTH have very strong self heals that don't really count as a "trade off", I don't really think WoG being used as often as possible is really that OP once vengeance scaling is fixed. no other fix should be required or really contemplated till that change is done and observed
User avatar
Neptuno
 
Posts: 258
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 12:28 pm

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby AriKT » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:58 am

I used WoG for all of P1 on our HLK attempts this week, and it wasn't scaling with Vengeance on Live. Its about 16 to 17K with 3 HoPo regardless of my Vengeance AP. This isn't OP and I think its fine on Live. Its about 20% of my health with 3 HoPo.

As for threat, its a joke for most tanks on raid bosses. Vengeance is just not a elegant way to resolve the issue of DPS outscaling Tanks.
AriKT
 
Posts: 105
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2010 12:24 pm

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Rofladin » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:50 am

Guarded by the Light now increases Word of Glory by 15/30%, down from 30/60%.


From the latest beta build.
User avatar
Rofladin
 
Posts: 122
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:03 am

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am

Rasmfrackn wrote:Either WoG is garbage and we don't use it, or it's OP. Why? Because it's not reactive

huh?
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10475
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: Word of Glory - OP?

Postby steadypal » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:22 am

guarded by the light reduced to only 30% wog healing, to the ground baby...
steadypal
 
Posts: 1206
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:28 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Cataclysm

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

Who is online

In total there are 0 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 0 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests