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[4.0.1] Stupid weapon question

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[4.0.1] Stupid weapon question

Postby Gottin » Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:53 pm

I have tried reading over multiple other threads and I have yet to see anyone anywhere mention anything about it. Has anyone besides me attempted to use a SP weapon after the patch and notice better threat? I understand our CS and HoR will decrease in numbers, but every other attack/spell should see an increase because we are almost doubling our SP assuming 1200SP in tank gear and 1000SP on a average weapon. Are there any numbers anywhere on what an extra 1000SP does to our threat?


Gottin on Area 52-- Double check and make sure I am not completely retarded.

I am showing a :
~14% increase in damage on Consecration
~25% increase in damage on Judgement
No change in Shield of Righteous(purely AP based)?
No significant change in Avenger's Shield?

With Melee - CS ~ 2300 and HoR ~ 1905
With SP weapon - CS ~ 1450 and HoR ~ 1900
Don't understand why with a SP weapon HoR is hitting harder. HoR says it strikes with 45% weapon damage, a SP weapon is clearly lower in damage?
Last edited by Gottin on Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [4.0.1] Stupid weapon question

Postby seigert » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:03 pm

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Re: [4.0.1] Stupid weapon question

Postby Gottin » Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:22 pm

seigert wrote:http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=29317&p=593316&rb_v=viewtopic#p593316



This thread assumes we have 4% hit and 18 expertise, and weighs weapons with those stats higher on the threat list. What if you at hit cap, and exp soft cap without the weapon. What is the raw dps calculation of the weapon.
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Re: [4.0.1] Stupid weapon question

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:29 am

Gottin wrote:This thread assumes we have 4% hit and 18 expertise, and weighs weapons with those stats higher on the threat list. What if you at hit cap, and exp soft cap without the weapon. What is the raw dps calculation of the weapon.

You can always reforge some of the hit and expertise on your other gear into avoidance/mastery.
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Re: [4.0.1] Stupid weapon question

Postby Gottin » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:08 pm

There used to be a place where I could find the actual equations for each of the spells now I can't seem to find those anywhere.

Used to be something like : base * .03SP * .03AP = attack do those still exist somewhere so I could run calculations of my own?
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Re: [4.0.1] Stupid weapon question

Postby Gottin » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:25 pm

SP weapons also have more stamina than tanking weapons at the moment, so a SP weapon with more stamina = more vengeance = more AP. A SP weapon such as Rigormortis also has hit. So while adding the SP/HIT/added AP(from stamina to vengeance) can a SP weigh higher on the scale. I feel like the calculations are lacking data.
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Re: [4.0.1] Stupid weapon question

Postby sculder » Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:29 am

I have a heroic bloodvenom blade and a heroic rigormortis, so if I find time in the near future i'll run logs on some dummy sessions
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Re: [4.0.1] Stupid weapon question

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:48 am

Gottin wrote:There used to be a place where I could find the actual equations for each of the spells now I can't seem to find those anywhere.

Used to be something like : base * .03SP * .03AP = attack do those still exist somewhere so I could run calculations of my own?


All of those details are in the code of the matlabadin project (specifically the ability_model_80 module) if you want to take the time to decode it. One of the EJ threads for 3.3 (probably the ret one) had all of the coefficients listed in plain text, but I don't think either of the 4.0.1 threads do.

Gottin wrote:SP weapons also have more stamina than tanking weapons at the moment, so a SP weapon with more stamina = more vengeance = more AP. A SP weapon such as Rigormortis also has hit. So while adding the SP/HIT/added AP(from stamina to vengeance) can a SP weigh higher on the scale.

Yeah, I think most of your intuition is correct.

Gottin wrote:I feel like the calculations are lacking data.

Duly noted. When you manage to find the time to construct and maintain a code model for paladin DPS, provide useful results to the community at no cost, and do all of that on your own time without getting paid, I'll be sure to criticize your efforts and chide you for not doing more.


More seriously, I'll try and include more spellpower weapons in the next update, but I'm very busy right now and haven't had a lot of time to work on the code lately.
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Re: [4.0.1] Stupid weapon question

Postby tlitp » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:53 pm

theckhd wrote:(...) find the time to construct and maintain a code model for paladin DPS, provide useful results to the community at no cost, and do all of that on your own time without getting paid (...)

Two material girls don't fit in a single MAT-cave. Therefore, I demand a healthy mix of boobs/weed/booze. The ordinality is irrelevant. :mrgreen:
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Re: [4.0.1] Stupid weapon question

Postby Gottin » Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:14 pm

theckhd wrote: When you manage to find the time to construct and maintain a code model for paladin DPS, provide useful results to the community at no cost, and do all of that on your own time without getting paid, I'll be sure to criticize your efforts and chide you for not doing more.


Truly meant no offense, I was merely trying to gather data to run calculations more pertinent to my toon. I do think that you have a great baseline for what is out there, but with all the changes there are just too many variables to include data for every weapon across the board. I will run numbers for myself based on the weapons I already have.

Rough estimates come in at an increase of 15% most attacks. But a sacrifice of 20% on our combo builder by using HoTR with a SP weapon instead of CS with a melee weapon.
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Re: [4.0.1] Stupid weapon question

Postby Gottin » Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:15 pm

sculder wrote:I have a heroic bloodvenom blade and a heroic rigormortis, so if I find time in the near future i'll run logs on some dummy sessions


Those would be the two I am wanting to compare, atm I am running tests between H Bloodvenom and Bloodsurge.
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Re: [4.0.1] Stupid weapon question

Postby edsdame » Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:36 pm

On a half-related note:
Assuming avoidance is not an issue, which weapon would be the best to use? Should I watch dps weapons, and roll need on one of them from ICC25?
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Re: [4.0.1] Stupid weapon question

Postby Malthrax » Fri Oct 22, 2010 12:45 pm

Spellpower weapons gain their spellpower by sacrificing physical weapon DPS. I don't think enough of our abilities scale with spellpower strongly enough to make up for the loss of weapon DPS.
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Re: [4.0.1] Stupid weapon question

Postby Gottin » Tue Oct 26, 2010 3:58 pm

Malthrax wrote:Spellpower weapons gain their spellpower by sacrificing physical weapon DPS. I don't think enough of our abilities scale with spellpower strongly enough to make up for the loss of weapon DPS.


Only HoTR , CS, and our white melee are figured in by the actual weapon damage, the rest are calculations based on AP, SP, base spell. that I know of anyways.
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Re: [4.0.1] Stupid weapon question

Postby econ21 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 1:51 am

edsdame wrote:Assuming avoidance is not an issue, which weapon would be the best to use? Should I watch dps weapons, and roll need on one of them from ICC25?


If avoidance is not an issue, I guess you are looking for threat and stamina (hello, PVP weapon!), but I would prioritise threat because your weapon matters so much more than any other gear slot for that. However, avoidance may be an issue for a while in so far as it helps you get block capped.

I would definitely watch them. My inclination is to use a tanking weapon in my survival set and a dps one in my threat set. Consequently, I would not roll need if a dpser was going to use the weapon 24/7. But I wonder which classes want these weapons? I would let a rogue have it, but would roll against a hunter as honestly I think it would do more for my gameplay than his. Ironically, two weeks in a row, I picked up Bloodvenom Blade in an ICC25 pug as no one wanted it. (The second time I greeded it for PVP to put a berserker enchant on it.)
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