pallies = squishiest tank now?

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby haargielol » Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:25 pm

I'd like to share my experience.
The guild(The Great Danes) and i were doing ICC 25 HC today and did i feel squishy? OH FUCKING YES!
The less hard hitting bosses weren't that much of a problem as i reforged to get the block cap and still maintained the same amount of health. Though that was about to change pretty quickly. Once we reached Festergut, Festergut started hitting me like a maniac.
I'll post some of the logs from Wol in numbers just to let you see how this happened.
On Festergut i actually died, which is something i've almost never tried before since we had him on farm.
He hit me for, now i'm just posting random blows because posting a few hits incl. all the other dmg + healing things, would be too much.
[20:10:04.102] Festergut hits Haargielol 29366 (O: -1, B: 12585)
[20:09:52.395] Festergut hits Haargielol 27023 (O: -1, A: 313, B: 11715)
[20:10:58.232] Festergut hits Haargielol 28849 (O: 5852, B: 14872)

These are pretty hard hits from what i remember i took of dmg the week before the patch.
Well, i died on our whipe and i died on our kill, as they managed to have a shitty feral dps druid go bear and tank probably better than i could've.
So we reached Putricide, and again once we reached phase3 i was struck down within 3 seconds of his engage.
I'll post the last 3 hits before i died.
[20:37:31.873] Professor Putricide hits Haargielol 34689 (O: -1, B: 14867)
[20:37:33.119] Professor Putricide hits Haargielol 33124 (O: -1, A: 295, B: 14322)
[20:37:34.343] Professor Putricide hits Haargielol 33917 (O: 2094, A: 12426)
This happened within 3 seconds so i'm not completely sure whether there is some parry haste involved or whatever, but it seems like i'm just getting owned.

Then we had Lich King and this was a joke and a really big con on my confidence as a pala main tank.
I died 3 seconds after he had started, we had joked about it just as we were waiting for him to engage and yes, the joke became reality.
[22:22:25.625] The Lich King hits Haargielol 64654 (O: -1, A: 852)
[22:22:27.117] The Lich King hits Haargielol 47092 (O: 12784, A: 852)
These are the 2 hits he hit me and yes i died, i know i didn't have Holy shield up, so the first as far as i can see neither of the hits were not blocked due to the 15% less chance to block.

I'm not the most ownage theorycrafter, but i understand most of it, but this just seems like a bug or atleast a misstuning from blizzards side.
I'll post my stats just so you can see that i'm at the block cap or whatever you need to see.
With devo, kings and Battle Shout
Armor: 28603
Dodge: 22,61
Parry: 21,15
Block: 40,17
Combined Avoidance: 88,94
Armory: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Auchindoun&cn=Haargielol
WoL: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-zoj6x8jhr979fjv3/
So i'm at the block cap, can somebody tell me what's going on? I'm gonna do some more research and check what's happening, but i'd just like to share my few cents of an almost rage quit.

Thanks,
- Haargielol
Last edited by haargielol on Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Fuin » Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:00 pm

I just finished my raid and I must say festergut hits like double truck. I was taking hits from 23k to 35k range. After blocked amount ofc, which was like 10k for that hits, meaning i would take like 30-45k hits. Blizzard fail... and now i mean this wrong formula for Icecrown bosses (as someone posted they use cataclysm one).
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Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby exiledknight » Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:48 pm

Well first off putricide does not have a parry haste mechanic, secondly my concern with the putricide death is that you took 3 hits in a row with what appears to be no heals. Posting your armory and being in pvp gear does not help much, however it surely seems as if healing was the issue and not the hits you were taking. Yes healing is harder, yes the tanks are being hit harder, no its still not impossible and no we should not be dying on farm content like this. The only tank death we experienced on our farm content this week was on an accidental marrowgar pull where 2 healers were still afk, and on top of that we only 2 tank him. I think instead of focusing so much on the we are so squishy, it needs to shift to what are the healers doing, because yes tanks prob take too much dmg right now, but until blizz does something that will not change.
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Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby haargielol » Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:11 pm

exiledknight wrote:Well first off putricide does not have a parry haste mechanic, secondly my concern with the putricide death is that you took 3 hits in a row with what appears to be no heals

In between these 3 hits i was getting healed for 21697 in total, from hots, yes you're right i don't recieve a LARGE heal, like the old HolyPala Holy light crit.

But i mean, with my 80K hp, he hits me for above 101k dmg within 3 seconds, this is a significant increase in dmg taken pre-patch to post-past.
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Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby exiledknight » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:03 pm

haargielol wrote:
exiledknight wrote:Well first off putricide does not have a parry haste mechanic, secondly my concern with the putricide death is that you took 3 hits in a row with what appears to be no heals

In between these 3 hits i was getting healed for 21697 in total, from hots, yes you're right i don't recieve a LARGE heal, like the old HolyPala Holy light crit.

But i mean, with my 80K hp, he hits me for above 101k dmg within 3 seconds, this is a significant increase in dmg taken pre-patch to post-past.


Do you mean 21697 in total? Even with that it is a healing issue, pre patch you would have lived for a 4th hit due to AD and no more. Again the reality that I have seen is that the block capping brings the dmg levels back in line to pre patch, if you feel squishy you are either not capped, in RS, or it is your healers failing. Tuesday when the servers came up myself our DK tank and a disc priest went into ICC 10 and were able to clear the trash up to marrowgar with no issues, so it is not like tank dmg is through the roof now.
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Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Kihra » Sun Oct 17, 2010 7:35 pm

exiledknight wrote:
haargielol wrote:
exiledknight wrote:Well first off putricide does not have a parry haste mechanic, secondly my concern with the putricide death is that you took 3 hits in a row with what appears to be no heals

In between these 3 hits i was getting healed for 21697 in total, from hots, yes you're right i don't recieve a LARGE heal, like the old HolyPala Holy light crit.

But i mean, with my 80K hp, he hits me for above 101k dmg within 3 seconds, this is a significant increase in dmg taken pre-patch to post-past.


Do you mean 21697 in total? Even with that it is a healing issue, pre patch you would have lived for a 4th hit due to AD and no more. Again the reality that I have seen is that the block capping brings the dmg levels back in line to pre patch, if you feel squishy you are either not capped, in RS, or it is your healers failing. Tuesday when the servers came up myself our DK tank and a disc priest went into ICC 10 and were able to clear the trash up to marrowgar with no issues, so it is not like tank dmg is through the roof now.


Yeah, this is absolutely right. As long as you're block capped, then incoming physical damage will be about the same, with the one exception being that we've lost AD's passive mitigation.
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Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Dantriges » Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:15 pm

Well one of my healers thought I was using cooldowns just atthe right time or so butI think she meant AD.

Could be that the healers aren´t used to the new healing profile.

What healers were assigned to you? Druids are now pretty good tank healers. Still if it was in the phase just before he exhales, healers could normally switch to the tanks with no problem unles speople were taking extra damage from flying goo. Yeah that someho most healers fell asleep, were unused to their new stuff or healed you according to a different healing profile they were used to. Stil, all probably switched to groupheal for some reason. I am not sure if at this stage, that there are formal healer assignments. Could be that your paladin healers were fooling around with flashlight, eh Light of Dawn and the druids play arund with new Liebloom and just left three on you without any further direct heal.
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Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Fenrìr » Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:42 pm

steadypal wrote:why would you guys let your warrior tank without points in that talent?



You tend to trust people from your guild who want to help an alt run. However, as it has been noted in the past couple of weeks, people only want the more geared alts to carry their alts to gear for cataclysm.
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Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Sathoris » Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:37 am

Squishier ? NO!

After checking out the new changes, reforged my gear acordingly. I've entered ICC yesterday as my first raid with these new changes.

Two things I've noticed.

1. I was taking less dmg on bosses, more dmg on trash.
2. As long as I was MT'ing ... never had TPS issues (~45k tps @ BQL, and lol 110k+ SoR crits on Festergut). (we always start with tricks / mds - about 2-3 in total).

Before these changes, a pally tank had more armor, but that's not the issue we lost ~5-6% dmg reduction from armor. We had Holy shield active and we also had ~2.5k dmg reduction as block value in case we blocked. Also before there was the 20% less dodge radiance which is gone.

In my opinion, 5-6% less dmg reduction from armor + 2.5k (fixed value) dmg reduction on block and we weren't blocking all the time VS 30% dmg reduction 100% is a buff in my opinion.

The reason that some healers say ... pally tanks are squishier on bosses is because the healing has been nerfed. A paladin healer have loads of mana problems if he'll spam the new healing spell Divine <something>.
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Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby haargielol » Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:12 am

Sathoris wrote:Squishier ? NO!
In my opinion, 5-6% less dmg reduction from armor + 2.5k (fixed value) dmg reduction on block and we weren't blocking all the time VS 30% dmg reduction 100% is a buff in my opinion.

I think you are forgetting the 6% we lost from RF, 3% from SotT, 3% from DP glyph and 3% from sanctuary. So before we had 15% dmg reduction from talents & glyphs, now we only have 10.
Then we got about a 5-6% dmg reduction nerf from the reduced armor.
This gives us a total of around 10% dmg reduction nerf.
Though this isn't just 10% extra dmg taken.
Say if a on a 100k hit, that means before any other reductions are applied, from armor alone, I would end up taking about 41.3k damage instead of 31.1k damage. That's an increase in damage taken of 32%!
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Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Sathoris » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:29 am

haargielol wrote:I think you are forgetting the 6% we lost from RF, 3% from SotT, 3% from DP glyph and 3% from sanctuary. So before we had 15% dmg reduction from talents & glyphs, now we only have 10.
Then we got about a 5-6% dmg reduction nerf from the reduced armor.
This gives us a total of around 10% dmg reduction nerf.
Though this isn't just 10% extra dmg taken.
Say if a on a 100k hit, that means before any other reductions are applied, from armor alone, I would end up taking about 41.3k damage instead of 31.1k damage. That's an increase in damage taken of 32%!


So you are saying this:
DMG Reduction
~70% - Armor
6% - RF
3% - SotT
3% - DP
3% - BoSanc
~5% - Block

vs

65% - Armor
10% - Prot
30% - Block

Imo my conclusion will be this: vs magic dmg it's a nerf we do take more damage, but against physical dmg i don't really see a problem, i think it's a buff.

As Treckie said somewhere, most of the times is the physical blows that kills us and not the magic component of the fights.
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Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby steadypal » Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:31 pm

We found a bug with Sanctuary where a paladin could sometimes have rank 1 and 3 instead of rank 1 replacing previous ranks. This was likely left over from when [Blessing of Sanctuary] was a castable spells and was probably causing dazes. It should now be fixed.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer


any chance we were also getting the lower points from that talent to or just the daze getting allowed?


he seems confusing, im not sure if he has his ranks mixed up, but sounds like we were getting rank 1, instead of rank 3
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Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Awyndel » Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:46 pm

Don't forget the nerf to demo shout in that equation there.
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Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:14 pm

Haven't you lost a lot of avoidance from the lack of defense? That will make you squishier pretty quickly. Also, when looking at the mitigation percentages, keep in mind that Armor mitigation works a bit differently than other types of mitigation. Armor mitigation is taken off the base hit, whereas other mitigation effects are taken off the armor reduced hit.

Using the following stats:
Pre 4.0
120k Base Hit
70% Armor Mitigation --- 36,000
15% Talent Mitigation --- 30,600
2500 Block Value --- 28,100 Final Hit

Post 4.0
120k Base Hit
65% Armor Mitigation --- 42,000
10% Talent Mitigation --- 37,800
30% Block Mitigation --- 26,460 Final hit

So you can see the new values aren't all that far off, and with those differences it actually favors 4.0. If demo shout was changed, that can make a fairly significant difference since it effects the base hit amount though. If you aren't avoiding as much, you'll see your health dropping to low values more frequently as the number of times you take consecutive hits will go up by a good bit.
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Re: pallies = squishiest tank now?

Postby Kihra » Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:35 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Haven't you lost a lot of avoidance from the lack of defense? That will make you squishier pretty quickly.


They removed Chill of the Throne though, which more than makes up for the loss of avoidance from Defense.
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