4.3 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 14, 2010 11:25 am

They might have hotfixed it already. If I can get a few other people to confirm this, I'll edit the guide.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Adryl » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:09 pm

I looked all of MT and I cannot seem to find it (yes I used search). It may be old news and since I've been out of touch with tanking but what is the block cap? and is there a mastery 'cap'?
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Flitter » Thu Oct 14, 2010 12:43 pm

There is no cap like a magic amount of mastery raiting to aim for. Obviously it depends on your other avoidance stats, too.

Code: Select all
/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combat table coverage. Currently at: "..string.format("%.2f", GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+5))


It's your combinded dodge chance, parry chance, block chance, 5% chance to be missed, and 15% holy shield buff, which should add up to 102,4% raid buffed. And thats just something around 100% without buffs.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby steadypal » Thu Oct 14, 2010 3:15 pm

seems like they fixed it, dont have wol or anything just flew out of icc, let an abom hit me from behind, and i took more dmg with DP activated LOLOL


and FFS getting dazed is getting old already fix it blizz



i've noticed im g2g with mana if i hold out on holy wrath in my rotation and use GC as procs instead,,, geesh HW is a mana hog
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Awyndel » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:02 pm

I am getting dazed if hit from behind too. Doesn't this mean we are getting crit? This could account for the increased damage you took. Even if they fixed the glyph it should not increase white damage taken.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby steadypal » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:27 pm

Awyndel wrote:I am getting dazed if hit from behind too. Doesn't this mean we are getting crit? This could account for the increased damage you took. Even if they fixed the glyph it should not increase white damage taken.



wasnt getting crit , and you would take more dmg with the glyph because u wouldnt have phys dmg reduction
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Awyndel » Thu Oct 14, 2010 9:40 pm

Ah more then with cd before, I see.

Erhm Question about glyphs:

Why do we use consecrate really? I hardly use it single target and I'm having a lot of problems getting a stable aoe rotation for lvl 80, wouldn't it be better to have that button to press 6 seconds earlier for the current aoe rotation?
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby econ21 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 4:36 am

Arincia wrote:Got to test out glyph of salv in raid today. Was OTing sindy at 98% threat didn't want to overtake MT so poped salv on myself (didn't have time to swap it out) and i had no threat (IG threat % went away) till till Salv wore off back and was at 88/90ish% threat. (would have to double cheack using omen to confirm but im fairly certain it works this way). It could be a nice way to do a pull by poping it on a high threat dps just before so you can get a good solid threat lead.


This is looking like my third major glyph now that divine protection is fixed. Sounds good for Festergut, for example, as well as for crazy dpsers.

I think our majors are very weak (e.g. compared to prot warriors where there some very nice ones - e.g. +1 target for cleave). I am taking consecration and ascetic crusader as my other two, although I am not convinced by the latter (given that I generally spam hotr and anyway mana is fine now).

I would not recommend focus shield to people running five mans. I glyphed it pre-patch and loved it, but now we lack SoC, I think it is a bad choice. AS is doing 26% of my dps in heroics atm.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Treck » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:59 am

Awyndel wrote:Ah more then with cd before, I see.

Erhm Question about glyphs:

Why do we use consecrate really? I hardly use it single target and I'm having a lot of problems getting a stable aoe rotation for lvl 80, wouldn't it be better to have that button to press 6 seconds earlier for the current aoe rotation?

To increase the dmg and duration WHEN you have to use it.
You hardly use it tho, but when you do you can get a little extra out of it, theres not like theres many other glyphs to choose from anyway :S
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Chicken » Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:04 am

Treck wrote:
Awyndel wrote:Ah more then with cd before, I see.

Erhm Question about glyphs:

Why do we use consecrate really? I hardly use it single target and I'm having a lot of problems getting a stable aoe rotation for lvl 80, wouldn't it be better to have that button to press 6 seconds earlier for the current aoe rotation?

To increase the dmg and duration WHEN you have to use it.
You hardly use it tho, but when you do you can get a little extra out of it, theres not like theres many other glyphs to choose from anyway :S
I also find it easier to work in with the Consecration glyph, it makes the cooldown 36 seconds which is a neat multiple of 9. That way you can consistently replace the same ability with it: I went with Judgement since it's pretty weak in an AoE situation and Sanctuary provides a nice amount of mana in those.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby aresius » Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:58 am

Hey, first of all i wanted to thank Theckhd for the effor and time to test prot paladins and share his results with us.
Yet i would like to put out a question regarding the talent build proposed for paladins. Atm I dual speced prot to test both the WoG and threat builds. Im prefering to try out WoG, im finding threat managable.
However, im very tempted to drop the 2 points in wrath of the lightbringer.
At the moment, testing on a dummy and with that talent, crusader strike is dealing less damage then Hammer of the Righteous For single target damage (of course, i have t10 2 piece bonus and glyphs for increaased hammer damage).
Given this, im using hammer of the righteous in my single target rotation rather then crusader strike. Since im not using crusader strike at all, All i get from WotlB is 60% judgement damage and a increased crit chance for wrath... Im feeling its worth it to swap these points to consecration (mainly for mana efficiency) and try to put out another on Crusade (ret tree), at least untill crusader strike gets some kind of buff.
I just wanted to see if i am missing something on this reasoning.
Thanks in advance.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Treck » Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:19 pm

aresius wrote:Yet i would like to put out a question regarding the talent build proposed for paladins. Atm I dual speced prot to test both the WoG and threat builds. Im prefering to try out WoG, im finding threat managable.
However, im very tempted to drop the 2 points in wrath of the lightbringer.
At the moment, testing on a dummy and with that talent, crusader strike is dealing less damage then Hammer of the Righteous For single target damage (of course, i have t10 2 piece bonus and glyphs for increaased hammer damage).
Given this, im using hammer of the righteous in my single target rotation rather then crusader strike. Since im not using crusader strike at all, All i get from WotlB is 60% judgement damage and a increased crit chance for wrath...

Theres something really wrong if your hammer hits harder than crusader strike with WotL.
Hammer will hit harder if you dont spend points in WotL.

aresius wrote:Im feeling its worth it to swap these points to consecration (mainly for mana efficiency) and try to put out another on Crusade (ret tree), at least untill crusader strike gets some kind of buff.

If your looking for more dmg, consecration is among the worst choises to spend talents on, but crusade is a good choise
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Adryl » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:00 pm

Didn't I read something here that HotR will hit harder regardless of the spec for CS? Maybe it was single target. But I agree. Theckhd is a beast and I cannot thank him enough.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:05 pm

It looks like CS was stealth-buffed today, with that change CS will likely be ahead even if all of the bugs with HotR are fixed (2pT10 and Glyph are still not affecting the AoE portion).
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Treck » Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:08 am

The numbers i got the day of the 4.0 patch was that my crusader strike was ahead of my Hammer.
Dunno what could make that differ really.
But doesnt crusader strike scale with weapon and AP, while hamer scales with AP? (atleast the aoe portion)
Thus with a "slow" weapon Crusader strike would end up with more dmg than hammer.
But with a fast "tank" weapon crusader would end up a lot less?
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Phonic » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:34 am

Treck wrote:The numbers i got the day of the 4.0 patch was that my crusader strike was ahead of my Hammer.
Dunno what could make that differ really.
But doesnt crusader strike scale with weapon and AP, while hamer scales with AP? (atleast the aoe portion)
Thus with a "slow" weapon Crusader strike would end up with more dmg than hammer.
But with a fast "tank" weapon crusader would end up a lot less?


With Vengeance stacked, HotR was outpacing CS. But as mentioned above, with the 150% base (increased from 120%), that answers the question and the cheese. At least they went that route of buffing CS and not the route of nerfing HotR
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Garath.Gorefiend » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:58 am

theckhd wrote:It looks like CS was stealth-buffed today, with that change CS will likely be ahead even if all of the bugs with HotR are fixed (2pT10 and Glyph are still not affecting the AoE portion).


Much as I hate to disagree with you Theck, I still get HotR hitting harder than crusade.

What people are missing, if they are using recount or some other meter is that HotR counts as 2 hits every time you use it...as a result, meters will show it as half the damage per hit.

Crusader Strike: Avg Hit 1810 (its a single attack)
HoTR: Avg Hit: 257 (melee Component) + 1913 (spell aoe component)

The combination of Glyph of HotR and 2Pce tier bonus simply makes it better than crusader strike in all situations...the only advantage crusader strike has is that it uses less mana

I did this test today on live just to validate prior conclusions. Tests were done with only self buffs (kings and SoTruth up)

I suppose its possible that with full raid buffs, the numbers may work differently given scaling coefficients.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Flex » Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:08 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:Much as I hate to disagree with you Theck, I still get HotR hitting harder than crusade.

What people are missing, if they are using recount or some other meter is that HotR counts as 2 hits every time you use it...as a result, meters will show it as half the damage per hit.

Crusader Strike: Avg Hit 1810 (its a single attack)
HoTR: Avg Hit: 257 (melee Component) + 1913 (spell aoe component)


What weapon are you using?

Using a 2.6 speed weapon nothing I can do can make HotR hit harder than CS.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:05 pm

Garath.Gorefiend wrote:What people are missing, if they are using recount or some other meter is that HotR counts as 2 hits every time you use it...as a result, meters will show it as half the damage per hit.

I don't think most of us were making that oversight.

With the buff to CS, here's what I get from the ability damage simulation:
Code: Select all
           Raw    Net  Glyphed
ShoR     15712  14477  15924
CS        4703   4333   4528
JoT       5305   5496   6045
AS        8980   9137   4734
HW        4141   4734      0
HoW       7356   9511      0
Exor      4300   4305   5166
SoT        392    419      0
SoR        385    385      0
SoJ        166    167      0
Cens      9787  10470      0
Cons      6740   6748   8098
HotR       614    566    623
HaNova    4953   4357   4792
Melee     1313   1147      0


That's including the T10 2-piece. If you remove that from the Nova portion (since it's currently bugged), you're left with 4357/1.2=3631 damage from the nova. That plus the physical portion is still less than CS.

If they fix the T10 2-piece or Glyph bugs, then HotR will overtake CS again, it looks like.

Also note that dummy measurements are mostly irrelevant. Both spells scale with AP, and due to raid buffs and Vengeance, that scaling is usually what determines the winner in a raid situation. Right now, CS should scale slightly better:

CS is 1.5*2.4/14*1.9*0.6684=0.3266 or 32% of AP (independent of weapon speed)
HotR is about 4-6% for the physical portion (depending on weapon speed) and anywhere from 24% to 32% depending on whether you apply the glyph and tier bonus factors.

If they ever fix the T10 2-piece or glyph bugs, then HotR will likely overtake CS again.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby steadypal » Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:18 pm

i tested on the dummy about = hits, and hotr did come out very very slightly ahead of cs..

that was with 2pc t10, and glyph of hotr

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fi1o ... details/0/


looks like hotr still might be ahead,,, that was just like 10 minutes of alternating cs/hotr casts and autoattacks only, they are about =, with hotr a tad more
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Sat Oct 16, 2010 8:35 pm

steadypal wrote:i tested on the dummy about = hits, and hotr did come out very very slightly ahead of cs..

that was with 2pc t10, and glyph of hotr

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fi1o ... details/0/


looks like hotr still might be ahead,,, that was just like 10 minutes of alternating cs/hotr casts and autoattacks only, they are about =, with hotr a tad more


....

What part of "dummy measurements are mostly irrelevant" was unclear? If I put unbuffed AP values (3500 or so) into the sim, I get the result you and Garath observed - HotR slightly ahead. But unless you plan on clicking off all of your raid buffs before you pull, that's meaningless for raid boss tanking.

At best, it might mean that HotR is better for heroic 5-mans, since you're unlikely to have much Vengeance AP in those.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Olen » Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:22 pm

RF now boosts our threat from all damage by 200% not just holy damage correct?


[edited for noob spellingz]
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Zabkorili » Sat Oct 16, 2010 11:41 pm

Apologizes if this has been asked before, but can you explain why the small change made between your Threat build 2/31/3 (http://wowtal.com/#k=RsnAz0R.a5o.paladin) and the build used for your calculations on the "Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x" thread of 0/31/5 (http://wowtal.com/#k=-kfFdYWM.a5o.paladin.). It seems the only difference is swapping Judgments of the Pure for Improved Judgement. Is it just a matter of preference of threat vs. utility? Assuming I'm correct in understanding that once we level past 80 Judgments of the Pure will become obsolete in favor of Rule of Law in terms of threat, wouldn't the 0/31/5 spec be more ideal?

Thank you. =)
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby Minnerva » Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:49 am

I am wondering if haste plays a part to our threat now since judgement of the pure is being picked up. waiting on theckhd to see how each stat now plays to our threat.
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Re: 4.0 Talent Spec & Glyph Guide

Postby theckhd » Sun Oct 17, 2010 11:07 am

Zabkorili wrote:Apologizes if this has been asked before, but can you explain why the small change made between your Threat build 2/31/3 (http://wowtal.com/#k=RsnAz0R.a5o.paladin) and the build used for your calculations on the "Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x" thread of 0/31/5 (http://wowtal.com/#k=-kfFdYWM.a5o.paladin.). It seems the only difference is swapping Judgments of the Pure for Improved Judgement. Is it just a matter of preference of threat vs. utility? Assuming I'm correct in understanding that once we level past 80 Judgments of the Pure will become obsolete in favor of Rule of Law in terms of threat, wouldn't the 0/31/5 spec be more ideal?


It's purely a utility vs. DPS question. I personally prefer the utility of Imp. J, but if you were going for an all-out threat build you would see a slight gain by moving those points into JotP.

The builds I listed are all designed for level 80. Once we have access to Rule of Law, it would be preferable to JotP, and I'll update the builds accordingly.
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