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Ret PVE Patch 4.01

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Re: Ret PVE Patch 4.01

Postby Rhivath » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:30 am

They applied it and fixed our dps, I was back to doing my 18k on stationary bosses in ICC (topping guild, including mages/ranged) by doing the following in case anyone else is having trouble still -

1) Regem 100% Str + Meta (so I run 1 +10 stats, rest pure +str regardless of bonus)
2) Reforge any excess hit/exp to Mastery
3) 5/0/31 spec, all dps talents
4) Macro Zealotry + Avenging Wrath, pop as soon as you get 3 HoPo and everytime it's up after
5) Glyphs were 15% dmg to TV, 5% crit to CS, 10 exp with SoT, -30% cost to CS, duration/cooldown to Consecrate
6) Rotations go as following -

~Single Target
TV if 3 HoPo *or* Mastery proc, CS if <3 HoPo, if CS on cooldown use in this order - Judgement, Exorcism, Hammer of Wrath, Holy Wrath, Consecrate.
*During Zealotry* Ignore all other attacks, just spam CS->TV->CS->TV, if your Bloodlust is going you will lose dps fitting in another attack and even without it the GCD is a bit close so just wait that half a second.

~AoE Spam
DS if 3 HoPo *or* Mastery proc, CS if <3 HoPo, if CS on cooldown use in this order - Consecrate, Holy Wrath, Judgement, Exorcism, Hammer of Wrath.

My gear is pretty ridiculous (Shadowmourne, all 277 but 2 set pieces and trinkets, BIS) but my numbers are back to normal/where they were (and a bit buffed) since before the patch. Zealotry is really sick for dps, I had a good crit string with it and was getting consistent 45k TV crits in ICC with it and it's a huge dps boost when you pop it.
Last edited by Rhivath on Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ret PVE Patch 4.01

Postby d503 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:33 am

Rhivath wrote:They applied it and fixed our dps, I was back to doing my 18k on stationary bosses in ICC (topping guild, including mages/ranged) by doing the following in case anyone else is having trouble still -

1) Regem 100% Str + Meta (so I run 1 +10 stats, rest pure +str regardless of bonus)
2) Reforge any excess hit/exp to Mastery
3) 5/0/31 spec, all dps talents
4) Macro Zealotry + Avenging Wrath, pop as soon as you get 3 HoPo and everytime it's up after
5) Rotations go as following -

~Single Target
TV if 3 HoPo *or* Mastery proc, CS if <3 HoPo, if CS on cooldown use in this order - Judgement, Exorcism, Hammer of Wrath, Holy Wrath, Consecrate.
*During Zealotry* Ignore all other attacks, just spam CS->TV->CS->TV, if your Bloodlust is going you will lose dps fitting in another attack and even without it the GCD is a bit close s just wait that half a second.

~AoE Spam
DS if 3 HoPo *or* Mastery proc, CS if <3 HoPo, if CS on cooldown use in this order - Consecrate, Holy Wrath, Judgement, Exorcism, Hammer of Wrath.

My gear is pretty ridiculous (Shadowmourne, all 277 but 2 set pieces and trinkets, BIS) but my numbers are back to normal/where they were (and a bit buffed) since before the patch. Zealotry is really sick for dps, I had a good crit string with it and was getting consistent 45k TV crits in ICC with it and it's a huge dps boost when you pop it.


IMO Hammer of Wrath is way too low on your priority list. With crits of it topping 30k, it should be right after CS (unless you need mana from JotW).
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Re: Ret PVE Patch 4.01

Postby Rhivath » Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:36 am

I was seeing similar/same numbers from Exorcism and Hammer of Wrath in ICC, because Exorcism is 100% crit and HoW still has a chance not to, they both hit about as hard at least in game. It was something like ~25k or so per when they crit, but with AW up I am spamming CS/TV and later on in the fight at <20% is only other time I could use HoW. I didn't get enough testing but against undead/demon the 100% crit was pretty good bonus for Exorcism.
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Re: Ret PVE Patch 4.01

Postby warden » Fri Oct 15, 2010 12:40 pm

Just a couple points on this:

Testing has shown (documentation in the EJ thread) that de-synching zealotry and wings is a dps increase, as using both at once causes HoWs to be lost due to the extra TV uses. Pop wings, CS->HoW->CS->filler->CS->TV, etc, prioritizing HoW over any other filler, and remember to refresh JotP right before popping. When this falls off, you can pop zealotry and go CS->TV->CS->TV, etc.

Only sync if fight length would cause one cd not to be used a 2nd time in a given fight. Also, the point about getting your haste to the point where the cd on CS is 3.x were x is basicly your latency x about 2 is still valid. In your nearly-BiS gear, this might already be the case.

Finally, before the haste softcap outlined above, gemming 10 str/10 haste for significant Str socket bonuses is a net dps gain (4 str for me), and same goes for matching 2 blue sockets with 10str/10 hit blues). Reforge expertise off of gear as needed to get down to 16 before the SoT glyph (26 w/ glyph) and pick up haste or crit as needed. Remember that even after the haste softcap, crit is about 75% as good as str up until about 35 or 40% (can't see the page at work).

Finally, if you're using the Rebuke bug to boost dps, the rebuke glyph is a net dps gain and pretty much required to keep from going OOM. Other than that, concur on all other points.
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Re: Ret PVE Patch 4.01

Postby d503 » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:11 pm

Quick pro-tip for those itchy-trigger-finger rets that like to AW+HoWSpam on the pull. Glyph Salv and pop it right as your tank pulls, and you get the "Mirror Images" threat effect for 10 seconds. That is, you generate threat, but if you outthreat the tank, you don't get aggro because you're kind of "invisible" for that 10 seconds.

After the Salv dissipates, you keep any threat you've generated, so you still have to be prudent, but doing this let's you explodicate stuff without immediately pulling aggro off your tank.

Most tanks take about 5-10 seconds to get their full rotation going, so this gives you plenty of time without sacrificing dps.
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Re: Ret PVE Patch 4.01

Postby warden » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:25 pm

Definately a good suggestion, although I'm personally partial to just giving them those 10-15 sec; I like to see censure hit 5 stacks before blowing CDs.
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Re: Ret PVE Patch 4.01

Postby Rhivath » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:31 pm

I guess I'm not as finely tuned as I thought, even though my DPS has gone up about 3k since the Patch (barring Tuesday before they tweaked us), I'll take some of these tips as advice though lately I'm the tankadin and let my Shadowmourne rot in bags because our 3rd tank is having issues patching (he's on a Mac, the fool).

Thanks for the advice guys!
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Re: Ret PVE Patch 4.01

Postby Adryl » Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:45 pm

After giving everything a good read here I may re-consider Ret as a off spec. At first I specced, went to dummy, laughed, went to trainer and respecced to Prot. Granted my gear is not stellar (still got a few odds and ends) but I was pulling well enough dps for where my gear was.
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Re: Ret PVE Patch 4.01

Postby callimar » Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:09 am

A couple of thoughts/ notes.

These are things that I have noticed after spending a few hours on the training dummy and one ICC 25 H clear. I am by no means an expert nor am I as well geared as some others. SO please do not take this as hard data. It is simply a short list of my observations.

3.x sec CS: Regardless of what the number here is it SEEMS as though it is going to be better to wait for CS than fitting in a second filler. CS > J > filler > CS. Prior to some reorganization I had a 3.9 sec CS. I tried fitting in a filler and while my DPS was competitive for my gear level this allowed for a slight DPS increase of about 150-200.

TV vs HoW:
Damage Hit NonCrit /Average Crit Crit/Average
Templar's Verdict 4932669 13.7 % // 197 12776.3 // 92 26063.8
Hammer of Wrath 2390179 6.6 % // 14 12171.2 // 77 28828.3
So while in execute range it is going to be a DPS increase to prioritize HoW over TV I think.

Zealotry + AW: This is a flat DPS loss. You will not be able to HoW while zealotry is up. The zealotry rotation is CS > TV > CS > TV

Tips:

-If you are an engineer pre speed pot before the fight and get to 3 HoPo 5 stack veng. If not save the pot for zealotry. Once at 3 HoPo confirm speed pot is down and use the glove enchant + zealotry. This is 15 sec of speed that will lower your GCD on CS even more. Note, this only applies if you are under the 1050 haste cap to get a 3.0 sec CS. Macro you glove enchant to zealotry.
-In a 6 min fight you can use Zealotry 3 times and AW 3 times! DO IT. Again if you are an engineer you can get 6 uses out of your gloves, and two speed pots if you are so inclined.
-Major Glyphs are largely your choice. A recommendation that you pick up the free HoW glyph. The 100% reduced mana is great if you are going to have hammer of wrath available for 1:30 sec out of a 6 min fight. I went oom with out this on a training dummy. Also, yes I know most fights do not go anywhere near 6 min. But I believe that to be a reasonable baseline for figuring out a rotation of abilities, CD's, and pots/trinks.

Unknowns:
Stat proritization: I don't know how to weight stats. At what point is crit going to be more important than str? Is it worth reforging into haste to get close to the hard cap? Or should you be going for mastery?

Glyphs: For the Primes what really are the "must haves"? I personally am using CS, Judge, TV. But I have seen a few using exorcism. Honestly I'm not sure thats a bad idea. The run I pulled the data from above had my Exorcism's averaging at 10.1k hits and 17.8k crits. Thats a dot for 2k and 3560 respectively over 10 sec. If the glyph is used does the dot refresh if you get another AoW proc? Does add a second dot? If one dot is running and the second application would be lower damage does the lower damage overwrite the first?

These are just rambling thoughts and I apologize if they are not clearly organized. I will try and sit down later and make a legitimate how to and add it answers to some of my questions if there is interest.
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Re: Ret PVE Patch 4.01

Postby kakashi » Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:58 am

1) The expertise cap has been reduced from testing. It now stands at 5.6% (172 Rating) at Level 80. Testing has been done on EJ forums :
http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t97237-cata ... anges/p21/
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t106276-ret ... _0_1_a/p9/
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t105429-cat ... ost1774977

2) Mastery is at the moment one of the worst stats for us during initial testing on EJ. They've since taken down the stat weights but I haven't seen any major changes to buff Ret mastery. Getting Crusader strike to 3 sec through haste though is clearly beneficial to us because it allows you to use CS + any filler and then CS again without wasting time. So try to reforge your excess exp/hit to haste and get CS to 3 Sec + 2x your usual latency. Once you reach this Haste Soft Cap, Crit then becomes our friend for now.
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Re: Ret PVE Patch 4.01

Postby ZeroKewl » Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:18 pm

kakashi wrote:1) The expertise cap has been reduced from testing. It now stands at 5.6% (172 Rating) at Level 80. Testing has been done on EJ forums :
http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t97237-cata ... anges/p21/
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t106276-ret ... _0_1_a/p9/
http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t105429-cat ... ost1774977

2) Mastery is at the moment one of the worst stats for us during initial testing on EJ. They've since taken down the stat weights but I haven't seen any major changes to buff Ret mastery. Getting Crusader strike to 3 sec through haste though is clearly beneficial to us because it allows you to use CS + any filler and then CS again without wasting time. So try to reforge your excess exp/hit to haste and get CS to 3 Sec + 2x your usual latency. Once you reach this Haste Soft Cap, Crit then becomes our friend for now.


Great info..Thank you
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Re: Ret PVE Patch 4.01

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:06 am

kakashi wrote:So try to reforge your excess exp/hit to haste and get CS to 3 Sec + 2x your usual latency.


So... if my latency runs at 1400 ms...
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Re: Ret PVE Patch 4.01

Postby warden » Tue Oct 19, 2010 1:28 pm

Then your latency is going to be something that is pretty much unfixable. For a high-latency setup or massive fluctuations, asssume values of:

Str: 1
Crit: .77
Haste: .43
Mastery: .24

I pulled these numbers out of memory, so double check the EJ thread... I think it was on page 32 ish, as I can't see it at work. Then run an FCFS rotation and just do the best you can. Its an inferior setup to a carefully tuned CS rotation, but not by a huge amount.
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