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Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby Meloree » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:38 pm

Just because that came over from the other thread without it's caveats attached, that particular set of numbers is true for optimizing total damage reduction, but that's not always what you want to optimize.

If ICC retains a significant level of spikiness, accepting slightly higher total damage reduction in exchange for reducing (or eliminating) the possibility of full strength hits may lead to increased survivability AND increased healability. Remember that your healers will still be spamming you, but they'll be spamming with "high-efficiency" heals, and if the incidence of panic moments is reduced, they'll have to switch to inefficient heals less often. I expect that at least in ICC heroics we'll want very much to be block-capped, even if the last few points are less efficient for total damage reduction.
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:44 pm

True, block capping is probably more useful in a practical sense. So the rule of thumb should probably be to just make sure that when reforging for block cap, you choose to reforge whatever you have more of (dodge or parry) into mastery.
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby Kihra » Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:48 pm

Meloree wrote:Just because that came over from the other thread without it's caveats attached, that particular set of numbers is true for optimizing total damage reduction, but that's not always what you want to optimize.

If ICC retains a significant level of spikiness, accepting slightly higher total damage reduction in exchange for reducing (or eliminating) the possibility of full strength hits may lead to increased survivability AND increased healability. Remember that your healers will still be spamming you, but they'll be spamming with "high-efficiency" heals, and if the incidence of panic moments is reduced, they'll have to switch to inefficient heals less often. I expect that at least in ICC heroics we'll want very much to be block-capped, even if the last few points are less efficient for total damage reduction.


Sure. My point in bringing up the cutoffs is not to argue against block capping. Understanding the cutoffs will help tanks achieve block cap while maintaining the highest levels of Dodge and Parry. If a tank is slightly below the cutoff for both stats, it may still be worthwhile to convert at an unfavorable rate to block cap for smoother damage intake.
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby polonadis » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:32 pm

My thoughts exactly. I'm no math genius and woulnd't be able to come up with the cut off points myself, but even if the reforging should result in me taking more damage overall, i would still choose to reforge to reduce the "spikiness" of damage. And that is what I advise others to do (my personal opinion, though). The guide, mind you, is entitled "reforging for 4.0.1" and is written with icecrown citadel in mind : )
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby AriKT » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:35 pm

theckhd wrote:
It's the same calculation for dodge, but since we have more base dodge it comes out to 21.6% dodge on your character sheet. To get that in rating, you need to assume a particular level of agility buffs, so it's probably just easier to work in percentages.


I must be missing something on the calculations, but I thought we had less base Dodge, than base Parry?

Edit: I forgot dodge from base Agility isn't subject to DR. I assume this is still true?
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby theckhd » Tue Oct 12, 2010 4:36 pm

AriKT wrote:Edit: I forgot dodge from base Agility isn't subject to DR. I assume this is still true?

Yes, as far as I'm aware.
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby Meloree » Tue Oct 12, 2010 8:44 pm

Well, in (nearly) perfect gear, you can get 50% pure avoidance, block cap, hit cap, have 48 expertise, and 58k hp.

Reforging is fair and balanced.
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby steadypal » Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:19 pm

mastery got buffed bigtime, but i dont see the change from my lvl 80 on beta and live, seemed beta had more BR,,, idk
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby knaughty » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:31 am

Linked to OP for my 4.0.1 FAQ - no objections, I assume?

Current OP prob not right for Cataclysm, but great for "cheese" month.
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby polonadis » Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:56 am

The announced change to our mastery and base mastery block (16% -> 24% base mastery block; 2% -> 3% per point) may make it possible to hit the block cap fairly easily (1st-2nd raid tier?) at 85. The cutoff points will get pushed way lower and I forsee big mastery reforging as soon as we hit 85. The guide will need revisiting then : )

P.S.

linking/compiling is ok, the sad part is that my thread will get lost in the process, burried underneath all the new ones that will surely sprout. Oh, the cruel circle of life... :)
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby Gaffer » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:20 pm

Meloree wrote:Well, in (nearly) perfect gear, you can get 50% pure avoidance, block cap, hit cap, have 48 expertise, and 58k hp.

Reforging is fair and balanced.


Mind sharing your gear set with these stats? I'm clearly doing something wrong if you've hit those numbers since I have reached block cap but am well below your numbers in every other category.
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby Kihra » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:36 pm

Gaffer wrote:
Meloree wrote:Well, in (nearly) perfect gear, you can get 50% pure avoidance, block cap, hit cap, have 48 expertise, and 58k hp.

Reforging is fair and balanced.


Mind sharing your gear set with these stats? I'm clearly doing something wrong if you've hit those numbers since I have reached block cap but am well below your numbers in every other category.


I'm assuming 50% avoidance means "with Horn of Winter and Blessing of Kings and including 5% miss." You'd only need to be at about 20-21% Dodge/Parry to hit that.

48 Expertise probably includes the Seal of Truth glyph. Meloree is also human, so that provides an expertise boost also. Aside from that I'm guessing Grinning Skull Greatboots, T10 legs and Mithrios (and then maybe a hint of expertise reforging to ditch excess Hit or something).
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby Gaffer » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:07 pm

Ah. Including raid buffs is cheating (and makes it a different story). I'm still well short of the hit and expertise numbers, but would be able to adjust to match those stats if I were able to get a 5th 277 token. Too bad Vanquisher and Protector tokens are going to people's *second* offset while there are only three people with Conqueror four piece.
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby polonadis » Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:13 pm

As promised, I'm posting my live gearset. The only buffs I used to get these stats is BoK, Agility food and Battle Shout (so the hp would go higher with fortitude etc.) :


Set #1 (built prior to Theck's Expertise Revelation)

armor : 29395
dodge : 24,85%
parry : 22,85%
block : 34,77% (before HS)
+ 5% miss = 87,47% combined avoidance and block chance

mastery : 14,88 (316 rating)
hit : 8% (246 rating)
expertise : 6,5% (105 rating + glyph)

Gear setup including reforging :

Head : T10 helm (277) dodge -> mastery
Shoulders : Boneguard Commander's Pauldrons (277) dodge -> mastery
Back : Royal Crimson Cloak (277) dodge -> mastery
Chest : T10 chest (277) dodge -> mastery
Wrists : Bracers of Dark Reckoning (277)
Hands : T10 hands (277) dodge -> mastery
Waist : Belt of Broken Bones (277) dodge -> mastery
Legs : Legguards of Lost Hope (277)
Feet : Grinning Skull Greatboots (277)

Weapon : Mithrios, Bronzebeard's Legacy (271) expertise -> hit
Shield : Icecrown Glacial Wall (277)
Libram : Libram of the Eternal Tower (264)

Neck : Bile-Encrusted Medallion (277)
Ring1 : Ashen Band of Endless Courage (277) hit -> mastery
Ring2 : Juggernaut Band (277) parry -> expertise

Trinket1 : Corroded Skeleton Key (264)
Trinket2 : Sindragosa's Flawless Fang (277)

Set #2 (after TER)

hp : 60836
strength : 1976
agility : 322

armor : 28795
dodge : 26,23%
parry : 21,69%
block : 34,51% (before HS)
+ 5% miss = 87,45% combined avoidance and block chance

mastery : 14,75 (310 rating)
hit : 8,03% (247 rating)
expertise : 11% (239 rating + glyph)

Gear setup including reforging :

Head : T10 helm (277)
Shoulders : Boneguard Commander's Pauldrons (277) dodge -> mastery
Back : Royal Crimson Cloak (277) dodge -> mastery
Chest : Blightborne Warplate (277) hit -> mastery
Wrists : Bracers of Dark Reckoning (277) dodge -> hit
Hands : T10 hands (277) hit -> expertise
Waist : Belt of Broken Bones (277)
Legs : T10 legs (277) dodge -> mastery
Feet : Grinning Skull Greatboots (277) dodge -> mastery

Weapon : Mithrios, Bronzebeard's Legacy (271)
Shield : Icecrown Glacial Wall (277) dodge -> mastery
Libram : Libram of the Eternal Tower (264)

Neck : Noose of Malachite (277) hit -> expertise
Ring1 : Ashen Band of Endless Courage (277) dodge -> mastery
Ring2 : Juggernaut Band (277) dodge -> mastery

Trinket1 : Corroded Skeleton Key (264)
Trinket2 : Sindragosa's Flawless Fang (277)

Additionally, my talent setup : http://wowtal.com/#k=-wcHR.a5o.paladin.

and glyphs :

Prime
1. Seal of Truth
2. Hammer of the Righteous
3. Shield of the Righteous

Major
1. Ascetic Crusader
2. Focused Shield
3. Divine Protection

Minor
1. of Truth
2. Lay on Hands
3. Blessing of Kings

I also changed Greater Inscription of the Gladiator toGreater Inscription of the Pinnacle and Greater Fortitude to Tuskar's Vitality.

and the gem in my helm from a Shifting Dreadstone to a Defender's Dreadstone

Hope this helps you modify your gear sets!
Enjoy :)
Last edited by polonadis on Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Reforging for 4.0.1 (Icecrown)

Postby Bladesong » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:41 pm

True, block capping is probably more useful in a practical sense. So the rule of thumb should probably be to just make sure that when reforging for block cap, you choose to reforge whatever you have more of (dodge or parry) into mastery.


Is there a bottom limit that you don't want to drop your Parry/Dodge below or just follow the above until block cap is achieved? I'm thinking of 10 man tanks who might have smaller numbers to work with. Also, are there any recommended guidelines on the wisdom a trinket swap to hit the block cap? For example, last night I didn't want to drop my Parry/Dodge below the percentages that had been quoted, which left me a little short of the block cap, so I reforged my Corpse Tongue Coin and used that in place of my Corroded Skeleton Key. I'm now a little over the block cap, but I can unforge other items or swap gems to even it out.

I also changed Greater Inscription of the Gladiator to Greater Inscription of the Pinnacle and Greater Fortitude to Tuskar's Vitality.


/forehead slap

Thanks for pointing that out - I totally spaced on those :oops:
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