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[4.0.1] TPS Concern

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[4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Protigy » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:11 am

Last night after applying my talents, glyphing and reforging, our guild decided to go do some old content for some "free" JP.

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My goals for reforging:

1) Hit capped w/ +Hit food,
2) Soft Exp capped (I ended up with 27),
3) Hitting 102.4% avoidance for Block cap.

All 3 goals satisfied. As Meloree stated in his Bleeding Edge of TPS thread, I will also be running full Prot gear to allow the healers time to adjust, therefore I was in the same gear last night I will use tonight.

We go in to EoE25 for fun to get a few people their A Poke In The Eye (25 Player) and You Don't Have An Eternity (25 Player) achieves. We did not have a Rogue or Hunter in the raid for EoE. I understand that in an optimal raid composition you will have at least 1-2 Rogues and 1-2 Hunters, so maybe that was the biggest factor in our threat problems. However, if Blizzard's focus is bring the player not the class, our lacking TPS in relation to some DPS's TPS is a bit lackluster and that is why I need your input.

I am able to hold threat for the first 10 seconds, then both Fire Mages (both in almost full BiS ICC25H gear) peel threat off of me with a massive amount of TPS (not sure if they chain procc'd or used CDs). I am able to taunt before any damage is done and we Salv both Mages. We survive the first Vortex phase and push Maly shortly after. At this point, everyone is going balls out and we manage to push the boss down to 20% health before the adds spawn. Luckily our dps was high enough to burn these down because the only thing I could do was chain taunt. I didn't have time to use any effective abilities to maintain threat on any of the adds. Once they died, there's technically nothing left to tank, so that's where I'll stop on this encounter.

After Maly dies, we head to ToGC25 with our Mages high off of their [soon-to-be hofixed?] DPS. This is where all the tank threat problems came to light - after EoE we did pick up a Rogue and Hunter to assist with +threat.

Based on what happened in EoE, I decide to tell the Druid tank to MT basically everything this time around to see if the threat problem is specific to Paladins. We pull Gormok and around 60% health, the Mages pull threat again, even with our Rogue using TotT on CD on our Druid tank. Taunting back was simple enough for him to do, so we were ok. The wyrms went relatively smooth because we didn't use Bloodlust and the Mages were calling out for Salvs left and right (6 Paladins in raid helped!). Icehowl emerges from behind the gates and the Druid is able to maintain threat over our DPS until the first charge stun. The DPS spikes so hard that just before he was to be unstunned, we had a Mage with ~250k more threat than our Druid tank. Luckily things worked out.

Enter Jaraxxus (/facepalm of the night). Our Druid tank is on Jara and I am on the adds. The Mages had to stop multiple times on the boss and everytime multiple adds spawned, there was almost no opportunity for me to use any other abilities other than taunt. In most cases, the ranged was kiting the Infernals until they died. The Mistress wasn't a huge issue because I was able to at least use some of my rotation before needing to taunt. We downed him, but not before losing nearly half of our ranged DPS.

Twins threat wasn't a big issue because people could swap colors and DPS the other Valk. Our Mages peaked around 55k DPS.

Anub adds were a pain to tank, I had serious trouble maintaining threat on just 2 of them. We wiped a few times on this before disbanding due to the threat issues and it being nearly 2am.

Q1: With the massive buff to Mage DPS/TPS(?), other than TotT and MD how can we effectively plan to counter such insane TPS (if anything other than telling the Mages and/or other classes to stop DPS)?

Q2: With the ramp-up time of HoPo for SotR, are there any thoughts on optional rotation substitutions, such as 1 or 2HoPo SotR on inital pull?


The clear choice is DPS watching threat and chaining TotT/MD. I know things are in "flux" right now and there are still things that need adjustments, but going in to our raid tonight, I would like to see if anyone has any suggestions/thoughts on how to successfully maintain threat when clearly some of the DPS is overtuned. It may just be limited to Mages (e.g., 35k DPS on ToGC25 Twins with initial spike of 55k DPS) because they were insanely ahead of everyone else on the meter (~+10% ahead on overall damage done).
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Axodious » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:41 am

Regarding Icehowl specifically when he was stunned chances are TotT and MD faded (as they aren't permanent anymore) which would be at least part of the threat spike.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Protigy » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:45 am

Axodious wrote:Regarding Icehowl specifically when he was stunned chances are TotT and MD faded (as they aren't permanent anymore) which would be at least part of the threat spike.

As well as the 15-second stun that increases all damage done to him by 100%. This was expected based on the DPS we were seeing. Only counter was to hover over your taunt keybind and use it at the right time. *shrug*
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Axodious » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:49 am

Other than that I'm pretty sure all we're going to get from Blizzard posters are "It's tuned for Cataclysm so deal with it."

Could have paladins glyph for Salvation which (as far as I understand) instead of reducing threat it completely negates threat for the duration. Then when X class is going to use CDs for a burst have them call for Salvation.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby sculder » Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:58 am

Synthesis wrote:Q2: With the ramp-up time of HoPo for SotR, are there any thoughts on optional rotation substitutions, such as 1 or 2HoPo SotR on inital pull?[/b]


I'm pretty sure this has been a major part of just about every rotation post I've read. Recently the CD changes to CS/HoR change our "rotation" fairly significantly, but the fundamental concept for the first few seconds is (i think) still very much in tact.

SoR procs HS, which you want up ASAP. My initial rotation has been AS > Judge > CS > SoR ... My recent talent builds have dropped imp judgements so it's often difficult to get that in there before getting into melee range, but if you can judge before SoR, you might have a chance to proc the crit. There's a lot of wiggle room in the first few seconds of our new "rotation," but I'm just telling my dps to play like it's BC, wherein I would constantly have to remind them to wait for 3 sunders :)

tl;dr - an early (1 or 2 hopo) SoR is good for initial threat, especially when considering holy shield uptime and sacred duty procs.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Dantriges » Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:05 am

Did they use invisilibity on cooldown, too?
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Gaffer » Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:58 am

Threat is noticeably reduced, but it's nothing that cannot be dealt with. We got a late start so we didn't finish our content clear but we did clear the first ten heroic bosses in ICC. AoE trash kind of sucked but we still pushed through without many changes. Against full BiS casters (melee dps seems pretty awful), we only rarely struggled with threat. Mages occasionally creeped into range but with cooldowns it was easy to deal with. The only person that pulled was our Balance Druid who refuses to stop epeening. Even with that, as the night went on, he became a non-concern. The biggest problem is that the first 15ish seconds of the fight suck terrible for us (and other tanks to a lesser extent). Once Vengeance was stacked and I was able to land a Shield of the Righteous (44k criticals, by the way), no one was going to pull threat. I have no doubt that it will only get easier as I actually use some sort of priority or rotation instead of just mashing buttons.

Initial threat is also terrible when comparing to other tanks. Tanking against my Warrior, I almost never had initial aggro. Not being able to Shield of the Righteous versus his Shield Slam pretty much guarantees he can burst threat harder. Past that, I noticed that if I procced a Grand Crusader and criticaled my first Shield of the Righteous, I would immediately pull back and, otherwise, he'd be able to maintain a lead on me the rest of the fight.

[e] Figured my gearset was relevant. My armory should show most of the gear I was wearing with a Corpse Tongue Coin in place of the Petrified Twilight Scale. All hit and expertise were reforged into mastery and then dodge was reforged into mastery until I was unhittable. This left me with 120 hit rating and 63 expertise rating so I certainly wasn't pushing threat stats. For Deathwhisper and Dreamwalker, I used my 284 Havoc's Call. For Sindragosa (we pulled with a couple of stupid wipes before having to call raid), I wore my Frost Resist set.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Protigy » Wed Oct 13, 2010 12:40 pm

Axodious wrote:Other than that I'm pretty sure all we're going to get from Blizzard posters are "It's tuned for Cataclysm so deal with it."

That is why I brought my concern here instead of the Blizzard Paladin Class forum - it wouldn't fall on deaf ears, but the 4.0.1 talent changes are restrictive to level 80s. I'm sure @ 85, along with the massively increased Strength on gear, as well as if our Mastery buff (new Cata build) sticks through to Live, we will [hopefully] not see this issue rear its ugly head again, at least until near the end of the expansion which is at least another 2 years(?) off.

Axodious wrote:Could have paladins glyph for Salvation which (as far as I understand) instead of reducing threat it completely negates threat for the duration. Then when X class is going to use CDs for a burst have them call for Salvation.

I am currently glyphed Salv, but last night I was using it reactively. It sounds like a good idea on paper, the only factors for success will fall on determining your high TPS DPS and assigning a Paladin to Salv them when they call for it on Vent. If said Paladin is busy healing a tank through Soul Reaper for example, unless that DPS has a Salv notification AddOn/Buff monitor to make it highly visible, they may or may not be prepared to not use their CDs.

TL;DR: It can work and is a good suggestion until 7 Dec. It will just take coordination and attentiveness.

sculder wrote:There's a lot of wiggle room in the first few seconds of our new "rotation," but I'm just telling my dps to play like it's BC, wherein I would constantly have to remind them to wait for 3 sunders :)

One of our Mages and one of our Shadow Priests rank in the top 20 (I believe) on WoL on multiple bosses every week. As much as I'd like to say parse hunters will wait, it's probably easier said than done, especially with their newly buffed (overtuned) DPS. I'm honestly afraid to see our Mage on BQL tonight.

Dantriges wrote:Did they use invisilibity on cooldown, too?

I don't even think they considered it. We went to raids we never do anymore and once they saw their DPS they probably couldn't help but see how high they could get. I don't blame them honestly, lol.

Gaffer wrote:Threat is noticeably reduced, but it's nothing that cannot be dealt with.

Agreed. My experience last night was with limited +threat from Rogues/Hunters. We have 2 of each in our main raid, so it may change things significantly.

Gaffer wrote:The biggest problem is that the first 15ish seconds of the fight suck terrible for us (and other tanks to a lesser extent).

This is my main concern with 4.0.1. Paladins are expected to main tank (durr, Maintankadin) and when we're not, at least in my experience (pre-4.0.1), mana sometimes plays a role in our ability to keep good TPS.

Gaffer wrote:Initial threat is also terrible when comparing to other tanks. Tanking against my Warrior, I almost never had initial aggro. Not being able to Shield of the Righteous versus his Shield Slam pretty much guarantees he can burst threat harder. Past that, I noticed that if I procced a Grand Crusader and criticaled my first Shield of the Righteous, I would immediately pull back and, otherwise, he'd be able to maintain a lead on me the rest of the fight.

The Druid in our ToGC25 tanks Heroic LK25 with me and there was no way for me to keep up with him unless I was TotT/MD on pull and was able to get a 3HoPo SotR off before he pulled off of me. As long as we can make it to our 3HoPo SotR, I think we will be fine on threat. The ramp-up time is just something the entire raid will have to take into consideration until 7 Dec unless they replace a Paladin tank with another class. :cry:

I did a VoA20 with a DK tank with considerably less gear than me. While in his rotation, after I taunted, he would almost immediately pull off of me. The only reason his stacks fell off was because he swapped to Orbs every time I taunted after the first ~40% when we noticed what was happening. Ugh.

Gaffer wrote:This left me with 120 hit rating and 63 expertise rating so I certainly wasn't pushing threat stats.

I will be Hit capped with +Hit food and soft Exp capped, so that will definitely make up some of the threat you were missing, but again, not in the first ~10 seconds before a 3HoPo SotR can get off.

Gaffer wrote:For Sindragosa (we pulled with a couple of stupid wipes before having to call raid) I wore my Frost Resist set.

If you remember, how hard were her Frost Breaths hitting you for? Was your FR set just precautionary for healers during p3, since the patch just went to Live?
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Gaffer » Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:17 pm

I had my frost set lying around from our first kill, but haven't used it since 15%. On our first pull, I died to a 47k Frost Breath in phase 1. It was definitely due to some missed heals (still trying to force our Holy Paladins into how I think they should be healing), but I threw on the frost resist set anyway. The next pull, I died in phase 3 without a Frost Breath because of lack of heals again.

I'll probably wear frost resist when we go kill her tonight just as a precaution, but it really shouldn't matter if your healers are adjusting accordingly and understanding that you can't just Beacon the tank and spam Holy Light on the raid.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Markoh » Wed Oct 13, 2010 6:51 pm

Still doing icc now so it's not a complete run but at the moment threat seems somewhat tight, that may just be relative because it was a complete non issue before.

On aoe pulls I've been having some issues, I can't keep even close to our druid on threat and the dk's and locks are stealing agro from me somewhat easily. The other thing I've been having an issue with is with dps starting heavy single target when I need to pick up multiple adds (aka deathswhiper on the side that spawns one fanatic).

Single target like people have said after 15-18 seconds I wont loose it, it's just that ramp up time that is so iffy. Though druid threat seems insane, maybe our bear is just really good but it's insane.

One idea is like a 5 min cooldown that gives you 3 holy power so we can start off fights a little easier.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby heuvarius » Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:13 pm

I had threat problems all night until we walked into ICC. Vengeance suddenly starts to stack up, and I begin doing massive hits left right and center. The problem suddenly started to completely reverse. As long as I am taking enough damage, my threat was no problems.

We only managed enough time to do the first 4 bosses of ICC (all on heroic) so I don't have as much data as I'd like, but I've taken a few snippets of just ShoR hits on various different parts of the instance to give you an idea of how much difference vengeance is making.

First set is just me tanking one or two trash mob, I didn't tank much more than that one mob, and Vengeance wasn't really stack up too high.
[21:06:49.656] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous The Damned *16807* (O: -1)
[21:07:02.101] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous The Damned *21519* (O: -1)
[21:07:12.535] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous The Damned *19962* (O: -1, B: 8555)
[21:07:23.737] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous The Damned 13404 (O: -1)
[21:07:34.159] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous The Damned 15022 (O: -1)


The Second set is from Marrowgar, I was MT and we are two tanking it. You will notice one particularly small hit which is done straight after a Bone Storm and I haven't taken much damage at all.
[21:41:22.525] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous Lord Marrowgar 27672 (O: -1)
[21:41:36.178] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous Lord Marrowgar *47310* (O: -1)
[21:41:46.552] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous Lord Marrowgar *55645* (O: -1)
[21:42:00.257] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous Lord Marrowgar 25771 (O: -1)
[21:42:41.983] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous Lord Marrowgar 16153 (O: -1)
[21:42:55.562] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous Lord Marrowgar 23723 (O: -1)


The last set is from Saurfang and it's pretty easy to see the dips on the damage during tank swaps where I lost my vengeance stacks.
[23:30:09.703] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous Deathbringer Saurfang *32733* (O: -1)
[23:30:20.605] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous Deathbringer Saurfang 19009 (O: -1)
[23:30:37.357] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous Deathbringer Saurfang *27795* (O: -1)
[23:30:43.519] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous Deathbringer Saurfang *11184* (O: -1)
[23:30:54.291] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous Deathbringer Saurfang 25268 (O: -1)
[23:31:04.625] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous Deathbringer Saurfang *54644* (O: -1)
[23:31:24.388] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous Deathbringer Saurfang 6873 (O: -1, B: 2945)
[23:32:02.092] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous Deathbringer Saurfang 10098 (O: -1)
[23:32:14.874] Berrylicious Shield of the Righteous Deathbringer Saurfang *31350* (O: -1)


I can't help but feel that as it is now, Vengeance seems to be playing far too big a part on our TPS output. I was seeing variance up to 250% on ShoR's output using exactly the same gear and buff just based on the existence of Vengeance.

Granted, other skills will have varying scalings and may not have as significant an effect as ShoR, but the underlying principle still remains. We aren't going to do enough tps unless we are taking enough damage. This is fine for progression and current tier contents, but will most likely prove to be a significant hurdle when we do lower level contents such as heroics and previous tier raids.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby towelliee » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:51 pm

I hit Festergut for 92k....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RCqCh2EAKU 1:35 in
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Miroslav » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:36 am

hi all,

i don't understand something about ToT (i haven't managed to get a proper raid last night)...

on wowhead, and my guildmate says that it does not transfter treat permanently...

please look at wowhead: http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=57934

it states:
Transferred threat is not permanent, and will fade after 30 sec.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby theckhd » Thu Oct 14, 2010 6:38 am

This just in, Vengeance is a really stupid mechanic. Not that we didn't see this coming months ago or anything.

I would not be surprised at all if the Vengeance decay rate was significantly reduced (i.e. it falls off slower) and it's refresh damage reduced (so it keeps stacked more easily). If it took 30-60 seconds to start decaying or was kept refreshed by incidental damage it would be far less of an issue.

But yeah, right now it's just a huge swing in DPS output to lose Vengeance. It really shouldn't be that large of an effect, it would be a lot more fun to have most of that damage baseline and have Vengeance bring our DPS up by 20-30% or less.
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Re: [4.0.1] TPS Concern

Postby Protigy » Thu Oct 14, 2010 7:05 am

Markoh wrote:Still doing icc now so it's not a complete run but at the moment threat seems somewhat tight, that may just be relative because it was a complete non issue before.

When Boomkins and Mages have overtuned DPS, you are basically performing your rotation as flawlessly as you can while hovering over your keybind for HoR and/or RD.

Markoh wrote:The other thing I've been having an issue with is with dps starting heavy single target when I need to pick up multiple adds (aka deathswhiper on the side that spawns one fanatic).

This is an issue if your DPS (especially Boomkins/Mages) do not watch their threat and just go balls out expecting Salvs left and right because they are either 1) parse hunting, or 2) not willing to sacrifice DPS while you build threat. Think BC raiding, or hell even Vanilla raiding where you had to wait 30 seconds to DPS something. It's not THAT bad once we get a 3HoPo SotR off, but until then, people have to limit themselves.

Markoh wrote:Single target like people have said after 15-18 seconds I wont loose it, it's just that ramp up time that is so iffy. Though druid threat seems insane, maybe our bear is just really good but it's insane.

From what I have seen, tank TPS output is DK > Druid > Warrior > Paladin; however, if you are well into the fight and Vengeance is g2g, Paladins can easily move ahead of Druids with procs and SotR crits.

Markoh wrote:One idea is like a 5 min cooldown that gives you 3 holy power so we can start off fights a little easier.

In all honesty, I'd rather not have to use a CD when pulling bosses just to get a 3HoPo SotR off. I would prefer for CS to just hit for about 4x harder than it does now. That would be a happy medium for me personally.

towelliee wrote:I hit Festergut for 92k....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RCqCh2EAKU 1:35 in

I can't check right now to see how hard our other Paladin tank was critting for (see: Tinypally), but here's our log from last night; he pulled ~13k dps on Festergut in full Prot gear:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/11260/

theckhd wrote:But yeah, right now it's just a huge swing in DPS output to lose Vengeance. It really shouldn't be that large of an effect, it would be a lot more fun to have most of that damage baseline and have Vengeance bring our DPS up by 20-30% or less.

I would find those changes to be a happy medium. We are tanking after all, so if Vengeance is to be a significant amount of our DPS, some changes need to be made before 7 Dec.



Last night we cleared 11/12 ICC25 Heroic and got to ~49% on Heroic LK.

On Sindy, I purposely did not using any FR gear to see how survivability was and it wasn't an issue unless healers neglected to communicate stack clearing and I just didn't get enough heals between a breath and melee swing. Other than the occasional scare with someone exploding UM in the raid, it went relatively smoothly.

Specific to LK, our main problems were convincing the Mages/Boomkin to not go completely balls out during Bloodlust because we only had 1 Rogue and 2 Hunters (the Hunters were busy watching Shambling Enrages) for +threat and keeping the off-tank alive. Shadow Traps' graphic has changed (all you can really see now is the outline of the circle) with [I assume] the new water engine, but Defile was still the same and manageable. Another issue was that Holy/Ret Paladins are unable to spec into Imp HoJ for Valks. A little adjustment on assignments and we were ok, but due to people losing focus on Defiles, we never made it to the second transition. I never died due to LK hits and Raging Spirits weren't an issue either.

Unless the rolling restarts this morning hotfixed Boomkin/Mage DPS/TPS, as long as you know who your threat whores are, just have a Salv ready for them. Other than that, tell your DPS to wait a few seconds before going all out on a boss encounter. Waiting ~10 seconds is better than causing a wipe and wasting 5-10 minutes of everyone's time because you are parse hunting during a time when the game isn't tuned properly.
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