Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

[Phonic]

Thanks for the analysis Theck. It is a shame that the CS glyph is so weak. I had originally thought about running that for ST and switching that out to HotR for AOE. But now it looks like we'll be swapping SotR for HotR, keeping SoT and Judgement on at all times.

In fact, with Judgement being so weak as well, if you're lazy and cheap (dunno how much dust will cost), you might as well just run SotR, SoT, and HotR as your three Primes and call it a day (since there's no raid progression atm anyways).

[steadypal]

pretty much means shor/sot at all times, with hotr for trash/aoe, put in AS for bosses and call it a day...

our major glyphs are meh, im guessing HOW and DP and who cares about the 3rd lol... but then again will we have to take out dp and put it back in on a boss to boss basis hrm

[Thelmiance]

Reading the talent comparison, I had one question. It seems that Reckoning should scale partly based on our seal damage. Since your unpossible spec modelling method has all the other talents turned on to try to identify the benefit of a given talent, doesn't that mean that Reckoning is benefiting from the value of, for instance, SotP? But, since SotP ends up pretty low on the per-point rankings, there's a reasonable chance we wouldn't actually pick up SotP at all. That gives Reckoning a slightly inflated value compared to, say, Crusade, which doesn't depend on seal damage. It's unlikely that the discrepency would push Reckoning to a lower value than Crusade, given the magnitude of the difference, but is it something that's been considered?

Basically, I'm curious as to the dps value of Reckoning (with SotP) vs Reckoning (without SotP). The other talent that seems like it might have an effect on others would be JotP, which would also increase seal damage and Reckoning procs through increased melee swings.

[Phonic]

pretty much means shor/sot at all times, with hotr for trash/aoe, put in AS for bosses and call it a day...

our major glyphs are meh, im guessing HOW and DP and who cares about the 3rd lol... but then again will we have to take out dp and put it back in on a boss to boss basis hrm

AS is a major glyph. So if you wanted HOW and DP, that would be 3. I will run Long Word and Asc Crusader depending on mana (for level 80 only, i hear 85 we're fine)

[knaughty]

Theck, as always, thanks for your great work! Bring on the headaches!

QFT

[knaughty]

With the Glyph numbers being out, I'm thinking that the default set of Primes will be SoT, ShoR and HotR. Saves having to change glyphs every third pull.

[towelliee]

Well after reading #1 ty Theck for giving us a starting points at 4.0.1 with talents glyphs and rotation.

- Prime glyphs for me will be SoT Sotr

Also theck any word on how censure dmg and other dmg changes by specing into judgments of the pure?

[Satat]

I know we are looking at highest threat specs, is there any consideration on a more balance spec say for LK heroic or Harder bosses in future encounters? Such as WoG Guarded by Light spec? Or is this idea totally irrelevant and should we focus on threat alone as it stands now?

[knaughty]

I know we are looking at highest threat specs, is there any consideration on a more balance spec say for LK heroic or Harder bosses in future encounters? Such as WoG Guarded by Light spec? Or is this idea totally irrelevant and should we focus on threat alone as it stands now?

My basic level 80 4.0.1 FAQ says to skip GrC and Hallowed Ground and pick up some WoG talents if you're still doing hard content like H-LK or H-Halion.

Theck's sims have to include those talents so that he can actually work out how good they are.

GrC turns out to be better than expected, but still overly complicated to use correctly.

Question: Is CS 3.0 seconds or 4.5 seconds for protection?

Patch notes apparently fail to mention 3.0 for prot, there's a concern it didn't go in. If it's missing, both my Guide and Theck's sim are massively out of whack.

[d503]

We'll know at 5PM PDT.

[theckhd]

Reading the talent comparison, I had one question. It seems that Reckoning should scale partly based on our seal damage. Since your unpossible spec modelling method has all the other talents turned on to try to identify the benefit of a given talent, doesn't that mean that Reckoning is benefiting from the value of, for instance, SotP? But, since SotP ends up pretty low on the per-point rankings, there's a reasonable chance we wouldn't actually pick up SotP at all. That gives Reckoning a slightly inflated value compared to, say, Crusade, which doesn't depend on seal damage. It's unlikely that the discrepency would push Reckoning to a lower value than Crusade, given the magnitude of the difference, but is it something that's been considered?

Basically, I'm curious as to the dps value of Reckoning (with SotP) vs Reckoning (without SotP). The other talent that seems like it might have an effect on others would be JotP, which would also increase seal damage and Reckoning procs through increased melee swings.

Yes, your insight is correct. Reckoning will appear slightly better here because of SotP. That said, it's also not a large effect.

Reckoning's damage comes from two sources - auto attacks and seal procs. SoT procs are only 16% of a weapon swing, but aren't subject to armor mechanics. A SoT proc with 2/2 SotP is about 415 damage, while the melee swing it accompanies is 1.13k. In other words, the SoT proc is about 27% of the total damage (seal+melee) you get from a melee swing event.

If you drop SotP, the seal proc will drop by 1/1.12 to 371 damage, which is a drop of about 3% to the total damage output of Reckoning. Thus, instead of 100 DPS per point, Reckoning might give you 97 DPS per point without SotP.

I consider anything under 5 DPS to be "noise" in these simulations, simply because our DPS fluctuates more that that in practice just due to latency and reaction time. So in that sense, the interdependency of Reckoning and SotP is insignificant.

[theckhd]

Also theck any word on how censure dmg and other dmg changes by specing into judgments of the pure?

Um, it increases? Take a look at the talent comparison on the first page of the MATLAB 4.0 thread. It's an increase, but weaker than anything you can get outside of Holy.

[theckhd]

I know we are looking at highest threat specs, is there any consideration on a more balance spec say for LK heroic or Harder bosses in future encounters? Such as WoG Guarded by Light spec? Or is this idea totally irrelevant and should we focus on threat alone as it stands now?

My talent spec guide for 4.0 is now updated, and contains suggestions that should answer all of those questions. See the links in my signature.

Also, Knaughty you should take a look at it as well to make sure that it jives with your advanced guide. I'm of the opinion that GC is still worth taking until you start optimizing your build for high-survivability fights like HMLK, at which point you just start culling the DPS talents in order from least efficient to most efficient.

[Satat]

I know we are looking at highest threat specs, is there any consideration on a more balance spec say for LK heroic or Harder bosses in future encounters? Such as WoG Guarded by Light spec? Or is this idea totally irrelevant and should we focus on threat alone as it stands now?

My talent spec guide for 4.0 is now updated, and contains suggestions that should answer all of those questions. See the links in my signature.

Also, Knaughty you should take a look at it as well to make sure that it jives with your advanced guide. I'm of the opinion that GC is still worth taking until you start optimizing your build for high-survivability fights like HMLK, at which point you just start culling the DPS talents in order from least efficient to most efficient.

Awesome Thank you very much..

[knaughty]

Also, Knaughty you should take a look at it as well to make sure that it jives with your advanced guide. I'm of the opinion that GC is still worth taking.

Part of the reason I'm discounting Grand Crusader right now is that it's easy to use incorrectly.

If you don't spec it, you can learn 939 without the EastToUseIncorrectlyGrCproc. While there's a theoretical advantage to speccing GrC, the chance that you'll actually use it right if you're new to 939 this week is pretty slim.

The DPS numbers from the proc are a lot better than I was expecting, so GC might end up in my basic guide at some point. The basic guide has also been updated already to state that GrC will be in my advanced guide as a talent to use, but that it is complicated to use right.