4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby knaughty » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:43 am

Dantriges wrote:Oh and the raidwall issue. Not sure if most people will actually realize that we have it. More hardcore guilds will try to find a way to use it to cheese their way through, others don´t think about it, unless it shows up in a video and is written down in an encounter guide. If it actually makes part of an encounter easier, the whole thing turns into "We can´t raid, Bob paladintank didn´t show up for the raidwall encounter tonight."

We're past the point where encounter guides say "Have your warrior tank do <warrior-only-thing>"

Raidwall has been massive for progression since it was introduced. For LK-hard specifically, it was more Aura Mastery that was OP, but go look at what that meant - we take ~5 paladins to LK and four of them have AM.

As for "Raidwall is OP" - yes, it is. But so are several other tanking abilities only possessed by other classes. Death-Grip. Spell-reflect. AMZ. Etc.

Tankadins were particularly OP in 3.2, and pretty powerful in 3.3. We'll ignore TBC were there were several encounters that were literally impossible if your team didn't include a warrior, but how about DKs in 3.0/3.1? Bears have been pretty stable in Wrath as "perfectly fine".

Ajantis solved this issue the standard "hard-core" way. We've had three tanks all through Wrath, and despite the fact that we've burned through a few and had 6+ people covering those 3 roles, we've never had two MTs of the same class at the same time. Mixed tanking team = win.

If there's some hard-mode encounter that requires a raidwall, then progression guilds will have it available. They're recruit a tankadin or have a non-tank switch roles (our DK tank switched to DPS in 3.2 because DK tanks sucked in ToGC). If Bob Paladintank has less than ~98% attendance, there will be an off-spec tankadin available.

When I retired from full-time raiding, my replacement tanking officer found a replacement tankadin. Took some hunting, but you do what you have to.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Dantriges » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:20 am

Put Death Grip, hm well where was it overpowered? Worked as a taunt on most bosses, but yeah it´s very useful.

Never seen AMZ much, unless I specced unholy and then it was for me only, as no one else stood close. It was pretty nice when the melees clustered around the portals by Jaraxxus or incoming wave of orbs in the Valkyr encounter. AMS with his debuff prevention struck me as a bit more powerful. I actually never saw unholy much as a main tank spec, it were mostly the guys who liked it´s style or whatever who clung to it or specced into it , if it was more useful for aspecific encounter. Yeah but could imagine someencounters, where raising a shell around your melees would help. But, well. If AMZ is a huge bonus for your raid, tha you are forced to spec it for certain encounters, it should go.

Have no warrior, never used it, but seems many warriors complained that it was close to uselesnes in Wrath, because many bosses were immune. Oh and Spell reflect is a skill, don´t have to spec for it and it´s personal.

Yeah DKs were completely OP in 3.0 and 3.1. I felt more stable with my Dk tank in Ulduar a whole tier behind my paladin, than with my main. How is that relevant?

Your last points are more interesting. If encounter is easier, with a certain ability, hard core guilds will have it. Probably many guilds, with a lower amoun of people applying have to do with what they have. Or we take 5 paladins to Lk hard.

Either way they have design their encounters with raid wide damage prevention and effects or they don´t. Stuff gets easier, if they don´t, for the guys who brought them or hard if they do, for the guys who didn´t bring the proper amount of raid cds. That´s more or less the same as bring a shaman for heroism. I am happy that the latter situation gets a bit relaxed with mages having it, too and I hoped raid wide damage prevention would go the same route.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Dantriges » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:02 am

knaughty wrote:Incoming de-rail.

Dantriges wrote:I mean that <Ghostcrawler> gets paid for it, has I don´t know how many people below him and probably considers himself an expert. We are just random guys from the internet

GC gets paid to be Lead Designer. He's been focussed on Warcraft as a whole for 2 years, prior to that he spent a decade being Lead Designer at a different company and probably didn't get to play much WoW.

So in those two years, he's been focussed on being Lead Designer for, what... four patches, Cataclysm, 30 specs, two new races and managing his team of however many people.

That's all fact. Here's some guesses:
  • He wasn't playing a paladin tank in TBC.
  • He hasn't tanked and killed Heroic Lich other than testing with GM-buffs.
  • He plays several classes and more than one spec on most of them.
  • He has less hands-on tankadin experience that the top several hundred posters on this forum.

Warcraft is his job and my hobby. Despite that, I bet I know tankadin mechanics and play better than Greg Street. I'd also bet that he knows Every. Single. Other. Aspect. of the game better than I do - and there are hundreds of those aspects, each of which is as big a topic as "tankadin". I have a basic understanding of maybe a dozen PvE specs (just enough to raid-lead), and have played nothing except Ret (I'm crap) and prot @ 80. I know nothing about the other 18 specs at all. I don't know anything about PvP at all. Or dungeon design. I know some stuff about managing software development teams, having done it in the past, but nowhere near as much as him. Also nothing about art design, managing artists, etc. I know a fair bit about data-centres, and lots about authentication and IT Security (day job, and more than GC would know). But overall, GC knows monumental amounts more about Warcraft than anyone else on this board (other than the Blizzard lurkers).

Doesn't mean we can't collectively work out stuff about tanking / prot-paladins that GC doesn't know, and pretty damn quickly.

It is utterly unsurprising that the hobbyists on this board know tankadin shit better than the lead designer. He more or less admits as much by the fact he reads this forum to get the theorycraft. EG: He thought 3.0 sec CS probably let to gaps, just not as many as 4.5 sec CS - it doesn't, it's gapless.

Hobbyist specialists can end up with narrow but incredibly deep understanding of various things. I know the weird little details of Jaguar Mark VIII saloons better than my Jaguar mechanic who specialises in classic Jaguars - because he knows Jaguars not the details of the rarest series produced Jaguar made after WW-2. Hell, I took it to the annual Jaguar Concours, and knew more than the lead judge (luckily for me - because he didn't spot a couple of non-authentic parts). Again - not surprising - there's only a couple on the road in the whole of Australia.

Greg Street is smart and experienced enough to be a Lead Designer for the biggest cash cow in gaming. I'm pretty damn positive he's aware of all the above, which is why he reads this board or has his flunkies do it!


I more or less said hat the whole interrupt debate turned into some kind of religious dogma from the Blizz side, too.
I more or less meant that GC probably THINKS of himself as an expert, he got 12 years of game design under his belt. I think we are all aware, that Blizzard makes mistakes, has a wrong point of view and whatever. And GC more or less was wrong on some issues like the 3.0 CS leading to gaps or the Inq/shor up simultaneously being OP...
And he got millions of people screaming at him. Some just obnoxious, some execting/wanting something different, some eager for buffs, whatever. Oh and there are a few that back up their stuff with numbers or experience (and you can´t be sure if they did something wrong). So I think the position are probably a bit more fortified right now, because both sides are a little bit fed up with the other. Also shipping date looms closer and considering the mentality of ship now, reap the cash, patch it later, well...
Him reading this forum, costs time, sending a flunkie reading a forum, costs personnel. Personnel that could work on the game right now, something that you have to justify, especially if you have to delay shipping date. If the guy who reads this forum is smart, he just searches for Theck´s posts with a few comments attached.
Well, and he is human. Probably got some emotional attachments to his vision of the game and dealing with the whole storm of forum posts is stressful.
I don´t knowhow he reads the forums, but I could imagine it goes like this: "Ah I am a moron; oh now I am an idiot; next poster thinks, I don´t get it; ah a post that´s more or less a Buffplz post if you condense it; oh this one means I have no clue; ah another for whom I ruined the class, cancels account, yadda yaddayadda; ah hm interesting idea, but don´t know if considered x; oh here is something that I can use." No wonder that design is more in a negative mindset about fan input.
And, hm, have you got the feeling that actually someone from Blizzard reads this forum? I don´t and our collective expertise is considerable and would probably be a boon for tankadin design. Yeah fans and devoted hobbyist specialists are probably a big resource if you are able to tap it. The signal to noise ratio is probably a big hindrance.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby kaanman36 » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:02 am

Dantriges wrote:And, hm, have you got the feeling that actually someone from Blizzard reads this forum? I don´t and our collective expertise is considerable and would probably be a boon for tankadin design.


Ghostcrawler himself has stated that the Devs do read Maintankadin, Elitist Jerks, Tankspot, etc...
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Dantriges » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:05 am

I know. Seems that they take their time to react to stuff.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Amirya » Fri Oct 08, 2010 11:10 am

Dantriges wrote:I know. Seems that they take their time to react to stuff.

Personally, I'd rather they take their time and do it right, than do a knee-jerk and have to hotfix for the rest of the expansion.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby knaughty » Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:58 pm

Dantriges wrote: If AMZ is a huge bonus for your raid, tha you are forced to spec it for certain encounters, it should go.

We always made a DPS DK spec it to help soak the first Infest on H-LK P2. It's a big help.

As for "therefore it should be deleted" I think you have it completely backwards.

There's two basic character implementations possible for any RPG-flavoured game. The "three-to-four" class version. Pick your class: Tank, Healer, Stabber, Nuker. OK, done. Often "stabber" and "nuker" will be merged into "damage". Minimal customisation available.

Call it the "Arcade game" RPG implementation.

The other version is what MMOs usually do, which is have many classes and allow deep customisation. Customisation has to be meaningful! Otherwise you're just picking what colour fireballs you cast or how many stripes there are on your cape.

Meaningful customisation means that there need to be interesting and somewhat unique abilities that a limited number of people have and those abilities have to do something useful.

Blizzard have done incredibly well at this. Most other MMOs have let you pick a class, but that defines most things about you (EQ, WoW vanilla) or they have customisation but no classes (City of Heroes). Half a dozen different "specs" was your typical gamut - either that many effective classes or that many meaningful slots you could customise into.

Blizzard have always had all classes be raid and PvP viable. Since TBC you've pretty much always had two viable PvE specs (I don't know PvP) and in Wrath they managed to bump that up to three PvE specs for many classes (not usually pure DPS).

Those unique and situationally powerful abilities are what makes WoW such a deep and engaging game. Remove them and you may as well go play Final Fantasy 7.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Feanorion » Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:07 pm

Amirya wrote:
Dantriges wrote:I know. Seems that they take their time to react to stuff.

Personally, I'd rather they take their time and do it right, than do a knee-jerk and have to hotfix for the rest of the expansion.


Problem is, they take their time and STILL screw it up consistently and repeatedly.

e.g. Nerfing pert-near everything associated with DK tanking except the IBF cd which aligned with boss mechanics, then finally nerfing that without un-nerfing the other stuff, leaving the class nearly unplayable for months.

e.g. Ardent Defender going from worthless (and having been worthless for a long time) to auto-fire OP pure EH and still not giving paladins a second actual cd that we could use on demand, proactively, or wrongly to punish us for stupidity.

e.g. Warrior DPS ,buff/nerf roller coaster with Shield Slam.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Dantriges » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:00 pm

knaughty wrote:
Dantriges wrote: I think you have it completely backwards.


Well I think that raidwide abilities turn easily from nice to have to mandatory.
Raids will try to bring in certain classes if they make the encounter easier or they are perceived as mandatory like bloodlust.

Blizzard has to design their encountes around them or they become easier or even too easy.

Like heroic LK. You have to bring 5 paladins specced for AM, Raidwall, Unholy Dk with custom spec (don´t think it was a usual spec including AMZ, most dps would prefer to even grab the most marginal dps gain over a survival cd for the whle raid) and whatever.

In Sunwell you had to bring so many shamans, skill leatherworking and so and so on.

Perhaps you find it exciting that you tailor your setup and specs of several members to the encounter so you can use something as often as possible to ease your way through. I just find it lame beyond a certain point, the point where you have to bring a particular setup to the encounter to beat it. Anub´arak was a particular bad case of this. My guild cheesed its way through Twin valkyr using door strategy and AM/raidwall, because our healers had problems healing through. It didn´t improve our performance or whatever, we just cheesed through. I think raidwall is nice to have in a raid if used occassionally and not exploited in a "Bring enough special abilities of a particular spec to this encounter to win" way.

LK heroic has enough flaws, I think it was never supposed to be beaten that way.Ah well this encounter probably has enough other problems. The whole post more or less read like How to use OP abilities to win an overtuned encounter.

I think a progress of a guild should be blocked by their player skill and execution of strategy not by having a particular class/spec not in the guild roster often enough. Well we couldn´t try Anub because at this time we had an attendance problem with our melee staff and we didn´t get so many appliances as better progressed guilds. We had to do with what we have not what we wished for. And if what we had wasn´t that was needed, tough luck. And good luck recruiting someone of this class, skilled enough to be a boon in a timely fashion.

Raid wide cooldwons just reinforce that behaviour because nice to have becomes mandatory and this turns into Bring class x to encounter to win.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Noradin » Sun Oct 10, 2010 2:37 am

Dantriges wrote:
knaughty wrote:
Dantriges wrote: I think you have it completely backwards.


Well I think that raidwide abilities turn easily from nice to have to mandatory.
Raids will try to bring in certain classes if they make the encounter easier or they are perceived as mandatory like bloodlust.

Blizzard has to design their encountes around them or they become easier or even too easy.

Like heroic LK. You have to bring 5 paladins specced for AM, Raidwall, Unholy Dk with custom spec (don´t think it was a usual spec including AMZ, most dps would prefer to even grab the most marginal dps gain over a survival cd for the whle raid) and whatever.

In Sunwell you had to bring so many shamans, skill leatherworking and so and so on.

Perhaps you find it exciting that you tailor your setup and specs of several members to the encounter so you can use something as often as possible to ease your way through. I just find it lame beyond a certain point, the point where you have to bring a particular setup to the encounter to beat it. Anub´arak was a particular bad case of this. My guild cheesed its way through Twin valkyr using door strategy and AM/raidwall, because our healers had problems healing through. It didn´t improve our performance or whatever, we just cheesed through. I think raidwall is nice to have in a raid if used occassionally and not exploited in a "Bring enough special abilities of a particular spec to this encounter to win" way.

LK heroic has enough flaws, I think it was never supposed to be beaten that way.Ah well this encounter probably has enough other problems. The whole post more or less read like How to use OP abilities to win an overtuned encounter.

I think a progress of a guild should be blocked by their player skill and execution of strategy not by having a particular class/spec not in the guild roster often enough. Well we couldn´t try Anub because at this time we had an attendance problem with our melee staff and we didn´t get so many appliances as better progressed guilds. We had to do with what we have not what we wished for. And if what we had wasn´t that was needed, tough luck. And good luck recruiting someone of this class, skilled enough to be a boon in a timely fashion.

Raid wide cooldwons just reinforce that behaviour because nice to have becomes mandatory and this turns into Bring class x to encounter to win.


Yes Heroic 25 Anub was just bad design.
We killed him only once by bringing 9 twinks just to meet the class requirements and got him on the third try (48 tries left).
Its not like we didn't have the players, we just didn't have the classes at that point in time, the player pool on our server just didn't support it.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Neptuno » Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:17 am

don't forget that in BC encounters were tuned toward potion spamming. all the complaining about 1 per fight was despite the fact that they stopped making fights designed around needing multiple potions.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Dantriges » Mon Oct 11, 2010 3:24 am

Some people probably felt that it was some kind of nerf not to be able to use potions every 2 minutes or that clever or more appropriately rampant potion use separated the skilled and dedicated from the scrubs or some silly notion like that.... :wink:

IMO it only separated the guilds who could sell bear or equip runs to fill the guild coffers from the guys who couldn´t but well.

I also think it was probably part of the plan to make healer mana matter, who were more or less the guys who had to drink mana potions like pot junkies. I still remember my priest cursing that she was oom often or couldn´t heal because of mana constraints.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Chicken » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:28 am

Dantriges wrote:Some people probably felt that it was some kind of nerf not to be able to use potions every 2 minutes or that clever or more appropriately rampant potion use separated the skilled and dedicated from the scrubs or some silly notion like that.... :wink:

IMO it only separated the guilds who could sell bear or equip runs to fill the guild coffers from the guys who couldn´t but well.

I also think it was probably part of the plan to make healer mana matter, who were more or less the guys who had to drink mana potions like pot junkies. I still remember my priest cursing that she was oom often or couldn´t heal because of mana constraints.
I can remember similar reactions from people in TBC when they changed to the current system for flasks and elixir buffs, rather than the old system of being able to stack every single one of them. If it weren't for the fact that flasks were (when they faded on death) typically too expensive to use for the majority of raiders back then I bet the change to them no longer fading on death would've had similar reactions.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby NYRIN1 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 12:56 pm

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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Darielle » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:00 pm

I will say that chain-chugging Destro Pots to do leet sub-2k dps as a Shadow Priest was FUN.
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