4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Feanorion » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:38 am

Dantriges wrote:
Prettysweet wrote:Divine Gaurdian is a no brainer


And I can´t believe it makes it into 4.0.1 Well it probably does, i´ve seen it, but it was a bad decision, when it was implemented and ever since.


Yeah. 100% agreed. Its a horrible idea to give us something unique as an advantage. Of course, its perfectly OK to leave us uniquely disadvantaged in regards to AoE debuffs, gap-closers, (for the moment) true interrupts, and the always-exaggerated lack of a fear-break. Amirite?
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Dantriges » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:34 am

It´s more or less bad design. Perhaps/probably the points you spoke about have to be adressed. I would like us to b eless disadvantaged inthe areas you mention but have to check again if other tanks are disadvantaged in areas paladins take for granted. I someho get the feeling, nope, but that´s more a gut feeling I have at the moment.

I think there were several encounter which were made a lot easier by using Aura Mastery and Divine Guardian. I thinkthere was a post by Joanadark describing the exact AM,DG rotation for LK har on a lower buff level. I mean it isn´t so valuable now to use it for a raid, when itemlevel and buff are so bloated, it´s different in progress. I could get an undergeared tank through encounters, they couldn´t do, using Divine Sacrifice and Divine Guardian.

I dislike the stupid Search for a shaman because of Bloodlust/heroism and I am not really fond of gaining a raid spot, because I can ease a hard spot in the encounter with a lot of group damage every 2 minutes.

Also most group buffs now have some selfish buff attached, Divine Guardian doesn´t. I am not really fond of explaning to raidmembers, you have to get it for the good of the raid.
all this, we need more paladins for Hand of protection, for aura mastery, raidwall, then managaing a rotation and so on and so on. It´s pfft, like bringing one paladin more just because everyone wants blessing might and the warrior is too lazy to yell, every two minutes.

It´s a relic of a past better forgotten and should go. I take it if it´s available, of course I do, because as Pettysweet said, it´s a Nobrainer.

Reminds me of someting friend told me from Runes of Magic. Seems there is an invulnerability bubble for the raid for a certain area with debuff cleansing attached. The solution to everything was "Bring more priests, we need more bubbles" not "Move three steps to cleanse the debuff in reaction to bos ability that has a 15 seconds announcement time", as intended by the encounter. At least WoW hasn´t degraded to this state, but well it makes some encounters easier or even too easy. And well you can´t leave a clas a unique strong ability, because in 10 man raiding there is no guarantee that you have a guy with this spec.

And well, I would like that we standon our own two feet instead of using Divine guardian as a crutch. I always hated the part where I had to look for a shaman, because we needed heroism.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby KysenMurrin » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:22 am

They should probably give Divine Guardian to another spec, like they did Concentration Aura. If Disc Priests didn't have so many tools already they'd be a good fit for it.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Dantriges » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:32 am

Huh? Who got concentration aura?
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Arnax » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:39 am

Dantriges wrote:Huh? Who got concentration aura?


Shammies.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Kihra » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:43 am

Lieris wrote:Bear druid spec: http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#0ZfMGcou ... :r0qz0wzMc

I just clicked on what looked good but this seems okay :P


You shouldn't get King of the Jungle. WIth Enrage causing 10% increased physical damage (and the loss of 4pc set bonus at 85), druids are back to having to cancel Enrage before charging in. This makes King of the Jungle sadly worthless.

Feral Aggression is too useful not to pick up. You want to be able to apply the full stack of sunders in one GCD.

I wouldn't pass on Stampede, since 30% melee haste for 8 seconds after a charge is a nice threat boost.

If you really want Master Shapeshifter, I'd drop a point from Perseverance to get it.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Korola » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:40 am

Arnax wrote:
Dantriges wrote:Huh? Who got concentration aura?


Shammies.


Currently it is a water totem.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby seigert » Thu Oct 07, 2010 12:27 pm

Feanorion wrote:If that looks like a conclusion to you, you need glasses, contacts, a monocle, and possibly a magnifying glass.


It would be just better for you if you get yourself some pocketbook about logic.

Feanorion wrote:That was clearly asking a question with the supposition of the proposed 3 second CS/HotR providing a gapless rotation.


'Gapless rotation' is a rotation without gaps. We were able to do gapless rotation even before 3 second cooldowns on CS & HotR. But it wasnt 'optimal' from a max-threat point of view.

Is GrCr optional or not depends not on gaplessness of our rotation, but on a fact that substituting HW or Judge with AS could lead to dps and threat loss. And possible gaps. If we will not use anything but CS, AS, J, HW or ShoR only at 3 HoPos.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Bladesong » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:37 pm

Its a horrible idea to give us something unique as an advantage. Of course, its perfectly OK to leave us uniquely disadvantaged in regards to AoE debuffs, gap-closers, (for the moment) true interrupts, and the always-exaggerated lack of a fear-break. Amirite?


These issues you bring up have existed for the entirety of WotLK, and it would be hard to argue that they had any effect on the desirability of having a Paladin tank. Your opinion and mine differ on how important these issues are to tanking and on how they actually stack up against other classes' related tanking abilities, not to mention all the things Paladins can do that the other tanking classes can't. I won't derail this thread by going into details, but if you're curious about why I disagree with you, I can post in the thread you started for this topic.

From my own experience (not to be confused with hard evidence) tanks are chosen for these reasons:
1) Who is available
2) Actual skill at tanking
3) Community perception/misconception on survivability compared to other tanks
4) Community perception/misconception on threat output
5) Everything else (and this is waaaaaay below the other four)

Unless it's a PUG in which case tanks are chosen by Gearscore :P

Back on topic: are most people here going with just one tank spec? I'm curious if it will be worthwhile to have a survivability spec and a threat spec or maybe a boss spec and a trash spec (or maybe that's the same choice worded two ways).
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Feanorion » Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:22 pm

Bladesong wrote:
Its a horrible idea to give us something unique as an advantage. Of course, its perfectly OK to leave us uniquely disadvantaged in regards to AoE debuffs, gap-closers, (for the moment) true interrupts, and the always-exaggerated lack of a fear-break. Amirite?


1) These issues you bring up have existed for the entirety of WotLK, and it would be hard to argue that they had any effect on the desirability of having a Paladin tank.

2) Your opinion and mine differ on how important these issues are to tanking and on how they actually stack up against other classes' related tanking abilities, ---

3) ---not to mention all the things Paladins can do that the other tanking classes can't.

4) From my own experience (not to be confused with hard evidence) tanks are chosen for these reasons:
A) Who is available
B) Actual skill at tanking
C) Community perception/misconception on survivability compared to other tanks
D) Community perception/misconception on threat output
E) Everything else (and this is waaaaaay below the other four)

Unless it's a PUG in which case tanks are chosen by Gearscore :P

Back on topic: are most people here going with just one tank spec? I'm curious if it will be worthwhile to have a survivability spec and a threat spec or maybe a boss spec and a trash spec (or maybe that's the same choice worded two ways).


1) WotLK had a different healing paradigm in regards to the interrupt. We could get healed through the extra damage that we couldn't interrupt and that the dps just didn't bother to. Also, bears also didn't have an interrupt, and DK's interrupt was tied to runic power, which Rune Strike might have just eaten up; so warriors were the only tank class that could be 100% guaranteed to have an interrupt available with frequent regularity. Bears got an interrupt; DK's got the runic power requirement removed; paladins got--- what? A vague promise to definitely take a possible look at giving us an interrupt at some unspecified point in the future. I'll take it, because its all I can do. The AoE debuffing is a much bigger deal now because block no longer eliminates or trivializes the damage of swarms of lesser foes, and healers no longer have Monopoly-money mana.

2)Yes, our opinions are different, and therefore, yours is wrong. :lol:

3) Paladins? or paladin tanks? Any listing of paladin tank advantages to offset our weaknesses MUST exclude abilities that ret and holy can bring. A raid can bring rets and/or holies, a non-paladin tank, get the "Hand of---", LoH, and other paladin utility abilities, and bring non-paladins to tank who do not have the gaping holes in their toolbox. Raidwall is the only thing we have that other tanks can't bring. Maybe WoG, but I have not been convinced that it will be worthwhile in raids at 85.

4) A and B are always "when raids have a choice of tank classes" and "if the other factors are equal" when I discuss them. C and D are at the very heart of my argument: the only tank that makes the rogues and DK's and shaman interrupt--- the only tank that can't cover ground quickly (even though this is rarely a real factor)--- the only tank that requires so much time to ramp up threat off the pull--- the only tank that eats full-strength damage from packs of mobs--- the number of "the only tank that can't---" situations contribute to a negative view of paladin tanks.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Neptuno » Thu Oct 07, 2010 11:49 pm

Glyph change = 1 tank spec imo. Change your glyphs for the fight and a general spec should work for just about everything
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Noradin » Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:26 am

Neptuno wrote:Glyph change = 1 tank spec imo. Change your glyphs for the fight and a general spec should work for just about everything

Glyphs aren't that versatile.

For that to work some talents would have to be removed and a lot glyphs introduced.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Dantriges » Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:42 am

Feanorion wrote:
Bladesong wrote:3) Paladins? or paladin tanks? Any listing of paladin tank advantages to offset our weaknesses MUST exclude abilities that ret and holy can bring. A raid can bring rets and/or holies, a non-paladin tank, get the "Hand of---", LoH, and other paladin utility abilities, and bring non-paladins to tank who do not have the gaping holes in their toolbox. Raidwall is the only thing we have that other tanks can't bring. Maybe WoG, but I have not been convinced that it will be worthwhile in raids at 85.

4) A and B are always "when raids have a choice of tank classes" and "if the other factors are equal" when I discuss them. C and D are at the very heart of my argument: the only tank that makes the rogues and DK's and shaman interrupt--- the only tank that can't cover ground quickly (even though this is rarely a real factor)--- the only tank that requires so much time to ramp up threat off the pull--- the only tank that eats full-strength damage from packs of mobs--- the number of "the only tank that can't---" situations contribute to a negative view of paladin tanks.


Seems that the AP debuff issue is now fixed at least with Hotr applying vindication. I hope that the -20% attack speed thing will be fixed, too.
The interrupt issue has somehow left the area of being sensible and slowly entered the area of quasi religious dogma on part of Blizz.

Not too surprising as Blizzard gets a lot of flak at the moment and well Designers like their ideas and cherish their babies. Somehow I get the feeling that GC had thrown us 3 sec Crusader in fit a fit of rage. Fine, here you get it, if you think you need it so much, don´t bother me and you will see what good it will do to you. And perhaps, only perhaps, you are right. I mean that guy gets paid for it, has I don´t know how many people below him and probably considers himself an expert. We are just random guys from the internet, some/most armchair quarterbacking, and most of them aren´t so polite as Theck or have the numbers and done the work to back it up. Doesn´t mean it won´t get changed, if it´s clearly not working.

But I think, they should give it to us ASAP and on a similar cd as the others. If there is a boss, you have to interrupt occasionally, instead of regularly, people will be very happy to throw this duty to the tank or feel at least more comfortable if the tank can interrupt, to, even as a backup, at least in my experience. It will be seen as a deficiency in the distorted views of the comm.

Oh and the raidwall issue. Not sure if most people will actually realize that we have it. More hardcore guilds will try to find a way to use it to cheese their way through, others don´t think about it, unless it shows up in a video and is written down in an encounter guide. If it actually makes part of an encounter easier, the whole thing turns into "We can´t raid, Bob paladintank didn´t show up for the raidwall encounter tonight."

Sorry just plain stupid design.
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby Noradin » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:17 am

They should remove it as a talent (giving it to others would make it usable for encounter design, which in turn would make it mandantory for us).
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Re: 4.0.1 Talent Builds -- always subject to change

Postby knaughty » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:21 am

Incoming de-rail.

Dantriges wrote:I mean that <Ghostcrawler> gets paid for it, has I don´t know how many people below him and probably considers himself an expert. We are just random guys from the internet

GC gets paid to be Lead Designer. He's been focussed on Warcraft as a whole for 2 years, prior to that he spent a decade being Lead Designer at a different company and probably didn't get to play much WoW.

So in those two years, he's been focussed on being Lead Designer for, what... four patches, Cataclysm, 30 specs, two new races and managing his team of however many people.

That's all fact. Here's some guesses:
  • He wasn't playing a paladin tank in TBC.
  • He hasn't tanked and killed Heroic Lich other than testing with GM-buffs.
  • He plays several classes and more than one spec on most of them.
  • He has less hands-on tankadin experience that the top several hundred posters on this forum.

Warcraft is his job and my hobby. Despite that, I bet I know tankadin mechanics and play better than Greg Street. I'd also bet that he knows Every. Single. Other. Aspect. of the game better than I do - and there are hundreds of those aspects, each of which is as big a topic as "tankadin". I have a basic understanding of maybe a dozen PvE specs (just enough to raid-lead), and have played nothing except Ret (I'm crap) and prot @ 80. I know nothing about the other 18 specs at all. I don't know anything about PvP at all. Or dungeon design. I know some stuff about managing software development teams, having done it in the past, but nowhere near as much as him. Also nothing about art design, managing artists, etc. I know a fair bit about data-centres, and lots about authentication and IT Security (day job, and more than GC would know). But overall, GC knows monumental amounts more about Warcraft than anyone else on this board (other than the Blizzard lurkers).

Doesn't mean we can't collectively work out stuff about tanking / prot-paladins that GC doesn't know, and pretty damn quickly.

It is utterly unsurprising that the hobbyists on this board know tankadin shit better than the lead designer. He more or less admits as much by the fact he reads this forum to get the theorycraft. EG: He thought 3.0 sec CS probably let to gaps, just not as many as 4.5 sec CS - it doesn't, it's gapless.

Hobbyist specialists can end up with narrow but incredibly deep understanding of various things. I know the weird little details of Jaguar Mark VIII saloons better than my Jaguar mechanic who specialises in classic Jaguars - because he knows Jaguars not the details of the rarest series produced Jaguar made after WW-2. Hell, I took it to the annual Jaguar Concours, and knew more than the lead judge (luckily for me - because he didn't spot a couple of non-authentic parts). Again - not surprising - there's only a couple on the road in the whole of Australia.

Greg Street is smart and experienced enough to be a Lead Designer for the biggest cash cow in gaming. I'm pretty damn positive he's aware of all the above, which is why he reads this board or has his flunkies do it!
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