PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:30 pm

AriKT wrote:I don't think Divine Storm is a good solution. It would basically be like Crusader Striking every target and would result in less AoE threat than Inquisition's potential.

Well, we'd have to supplement it with a talent to boost its damage. Again, don't think in terms of damage numbers, since those can be tweaked to whatever they need to be.

AriKT wrote:Increasing HoPo generation won't do much for us also, unless its a huge increase in HoPo generation.

....

The bigger issue I see is that our abilities are all used in rotation regardless of AoE or Single target.


I share your concerns about not having abilities free to pick up loose mobs. However, increasing Holy Power generation through Judgement does help on that front, because it means we won't cast Holy Wrath or Cons very often.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:32 pm

Sabindeus wrote:I don't see the distinction from the way it works now? I.e. use 3 HoPo for either threat or mitigation.

It gets rid of the ramp-up time concerns, because we don't have ShoR as a finisher anymore. It also makes the penalty for pushing CS back essentially zero, meaning we can take full advantage of SD/GC procs.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby AriKT » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:32 pm

Sabindeus wrote:I don't see the distinction from the way it works now? I.e. use 3 HoPo for either threat or mitigation.


Right now its the choice between AoE threat(Inquisition) or Single Target threat(ShoR). If you're not talented to proc block on WoG then its the choice of healing vs mitigation and threat. If talented then its just healing vs threat.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby AriKT » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:34 pm

theckhd wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I don't see the distinction from the way it works now? I.e. use 3 HoPo for either threat or mitigation.

It gets rid of the ramp-up time concerns, because we don't have ShoR as a finisher anymore. It also makes the penalty for pushing CS back essentially zero, meaning we can take full advantage of SD/GC procs.


The ramp up time is probably the most annoying part of Holy Power. IMHO, a talent that changes Divine Plea to give us 3 HoPo instead of mana would fix a lot of the ramp up time issues.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:36 pm

AriKT wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I don't see the distinction from the way it works now? I.e. use 3 HoPo for either threat or mitigation.

It gets rid of the ramp-up time concerns, because we don't have ShoR as a finisher anymore. It also makes the penalty for pushing CS back essentially zero, meaning we can take full advantage of SD/GC procs.


The ramp up time is probably the most annoying part of Holy Power. IMHO, a talent that changes Divine Plea to give us 3 HoPo instead of mana would fix a lot of the ramp up time issues.



Not really since it would only be available every 2 mins. Perhaps works for right before a boss fight but not during a bad mob pull if it happens to be on CD.

Also, I'd like to have my dead GCDs fixed, kthxbye.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby AriKT » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:41 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Not really since it would only be available every 2 mins. Perhaps works for right before a boss fight but not during a bad mob pull if it happens to be on CD.

Also, I'd like to have my dead GCDs fixed, kthxbye.


Its better than nothing. Trash doesn't die all that fast and its not like you'll always be at 0 HoPo between packs. So its a nice thing to have for those bad moments, and it would be great for boss pulls.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Arianne » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:44 pm

As has been said before, giving us a band-aid fix that only partially helps isn't what we need, what we need is a better design.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Sabindeus » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:44 pm

theckhd wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I don't see the distinction from the way it works now? I.e. use 3 HoPo for either threat or mitigation.

It gets rid of the ramp-up time concerns, because we don't have ShoR as a finisher anymore. It also makes the penalty for pushing CS back essentially zero, meaning we can take full advantage of SD/GC procs.


How does it get rid of the ramp-up time concerns exactly? We'd still need 3 HoPo to get our full mitigation (for the Block %), and then need to use that HoPo to get our full threat (for Inquisition).
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:44 pm

Point there.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Thyre » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:57 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Candiru wrote:Personally I'd rather simply scrap HP from being spent as prot. Just make holyshield add 5% block chance per HP stored, and ShoR a xs CD ability that ignores HP. Now we can sit on 3/3 HP and full mitigation, or use Inquisition for more threat (but less mitigation, add -X% block chance to the inquisition buff to balance as appropriate), or use WoG for healing. Crucially now we will be spending lots of the time sitting on 3/3 HP, so we can WoG when its actually useful rather than spamming it. Spamming WoG will result in lower mitigation from holy shield, which would balance the self-healing from a healer-mana POV while using it sensibly could save your life and save healer mana by allowing them to cast cheaper heals rather than emergency heals if you top yourself off quickly.


That's probably the best "change the way HP works as a resource for prot" idea (i.e. method 4) I've heard yet. I actually like that a lot - we keep up the mitigation by CSing, but still have the option to trade mitigation for threat (Inq) or immediate survivability (WoG).


It's beautiful!


Yes i really do think that this is possible the best and maybe only way holy power can work as a tanking class. This would be also more fun when it comes to choosing. WoG would make sence as would inq.

If only Blizzard would read it/feedbacks...


Sabindeus wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I don't see the distinction from the way it works now? I.e. use 3 HoPo for either threat or mitigation.

It gets rid of the ramp-up time concerns, because we don't have ShoR as a finisher anymore. It also makes the penalty for pushing CS back essentially zero, meaning we can take full advantage of SD/GC procs.


How does it get rid of the ramp-up time concerns exactly? We'd still need 3 HoPo to get our full mitigation (for the Block %), and then need to use that HoPo to get our full threat (for Inquisition).



You could prot generat HoPow out of combat... or via talent 1 min dp giving you 3 HoPoW (much like bloodrage) instant.

Or .. i mean ... if our HoPow would be change to something good locking like this .. i even would accept this ramp up time on "holyshield".



However. Even with these changes i don t really like CS and Hammer charing CD. Makes it Boring. I would prefer Hammer would use the same mechanic as HW. Beside that still missen off gcd interrupt and i personly don t like to put AS on cd all the time. I think Grand Crusade should reset CD (if these changes go life) on something else than AS. Maybe SoR maybe HotR ect pp but AS is something i want to save for pickupe/silence. Like i prefer HW to save for the stun (groups) and "burst" ae.

grettings
Last edited by Thyre on Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Flex » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:00 pm

Malthrax wrote:
Arianne wrote:Consecration is not a finisher. It's a DoT.

Rupture is a DoT, and is considered a finisher, since it consumes combo points. So there is precidence for a non-direct-damage finishing move.


And if we want to get technical Slice and Dice is a finisher that increases damage done of other things, like Inquisition.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:07 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:I don't see the distinction from the way it works now? I.e. use 3 HoPo for either threat or mitigation.

It gets rid of the ramp-up time concerns, because we don't have ShoR as a finisher anymore. It also makes the penalty for pushing CS back essentially zero, meaning we can take full advantage of SD/GC procs.


How does it get rid of the ramp-up time concerns exactly? We'd still need 3 HoPo to get our full mitigation (for the Block %), and then need to use that HoPo to get our full threat (for Inquisition).


Threat ramp-up times, not mitigation. One of the louder complaints was that we have to wait 13+ seconds to get off our first 3ShoR, which is a good chunk of our threat generation. By removing ShoR as a finisher, it means our threat is balanced without it, which means all of our other abilities hit harder.

Our "natural" state in this model would be sitting at 3 HoPo for the full 15% block. That's what our threat would be balanced around, so we wouldn't be denied our big opening moves (AS and a reworked version of ShoR, presumably) on the pull.

We'd also then have the option to drop that 15% block (mitigation) for threat (Inquisition) - while off-tanking, for example, we might keep up Inq instead of using ShoR. We'd also be able to trade the next 9-12 seconds of mitigation for on-demand healing with WoG. That makes it an interesting choice and removes the concerns about not being able to use it on-demand due to HP limitation, while still limiting the ability to spam it (you need to recover that HP after all). In fact, this model makes Eternal Glory a pretty decent talent, though GbtL would still have to be reworked.

Mitigation ramp-up isn't a big deal, at least on the pull. I think that concern is frequently exaggerated in these discussions.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:18 pm

I still would like to see your lengthy post on the official forums.
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby tlitp » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:24 pm

theckhd wrote:
  • I don't find empty GCDs fun, I find them frustrating. It means I have nothing to do but wait, and it also means I don't have something on hand to pick up or solidify threat on a stray mob.
  • I don't find holy power that much fun.
    (...)its implementation as prot feels far more like a restriction than an enabler(...)
  • I don't like Inquisition as an AoE "finisher." I don't think it's good design to spend combo points doing something passive(...)
  • I don't like that AS is a silence and interrupt. It should be either our big-hitter or our silence/interrupt, not both.

(...)
Variability is not necessary a good thing for a tanking rotation

I. Purely subjective. Reconsider the emphasized part - you're mixing up two fundamentally different tasks, and while doing so you conveniently ignore some tools... which can't be included in any standard "rotation".
II. CP/finisher duality is a limitation by design.
III. Spot on.
IV. This is a major design flaw. The protection toolbox has several examples of hybrid abilities/mechanics (ShoR/HS, J/JotJ/JotW, (CS/HotR)/Vind, AS).
I'd simply ignore the "not GCD-capped" status. Focus instead on having meaningful decisions :
  • less hybrid tools
  • less multipurpose abilities (ST/AoE, melee range/long range)
  • non-obvious scaling with HoPow (using a 3-HoPow finisher should be a decision - optimal or less optimal - not something that is deemed mandatory in any given circumstance)

PS. *necessarily, silly Paladin. :P
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Re: PTR Build 13033 - 9/23/10

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:35 pm

tlitp wrote:
theckhd wrote:
  • I don't find empty GCDs fun, I find them frustrating. It means I have nothing to do but wait, and it also means I don't have something on hand to pick up or solidify threat on a stray mob.

(...)
Variability is not necessary a good thing for a tanking rotation

I. Purely subjective. Reconsider the emphasized part - you're mixing up two fundamentally different tasks, and while doing so you conveniently ignore some tools... which can't be included in any standard "rotation".

PS. *necessarily, silly Paladin. :P


It still is a reality when I just lost threat on an add, I taunt, and then I'm stuck with nothing to solidify that threat on for the next 3 secs.

Reality brought by Stupid DPS that cant focus -- so yeah, no fault of our own but it's an scenario that many of us have dealt with in live but we quickly recover because we do are able to quickly build aggro back on that stray mob.
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