Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:16 am

About to head off to a movie, so I don't have much time to post. I spent the morning on the priority simulation code, which is almost done. It's functional now, but I want to do some polishing to it.

It currently calculates damage two ways - for one, it recalculates ability_model every iteration and jots down the damage caused by each spell when it fires. The other is more abstract, in that it tracks SD, Inqusition, and every spell that's cast, and at the end generates spell weighting coefficients for each.

The general concept is that once you have the coefficients, your DPS is (coeff*dmg.SpellName) for each spell. The coefficient is basically (casts)/(total time), but modified to account for Inquisition and SD procs.

I prefer the coefficient method because it gives me an easy way to do the stat calculations later on (using the old method). However, there's one big caveat - since ShoR can be avoided, I can't use the coefficients for hit or expertise (because that changes the rotation).

I'm mulling over which damage calculation I prefer - I still think I prefer the coefficient method, since I don't have to re-run the simulation for other stats and it's redundant with the "on-the-fly" calculation if I re-run the simulation anyhow. It's also much faster if I don't run ability_model every iteration, for obvious reasons.

Would like some feedback on this, will check back in after the movie.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Arianne » Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:15 pm

tlitp wrote:Interested in seeing several data sets on the topic of avoidance DR, conveying both 80ptr and 85beta.
- pure dodge (i.e. no buffs, no gear with agility)
- pure agility (no buffs, no gear with dodge)
- parry
Only character panel info is needed at this time.

EDIT : also include a set of data conveying base values. No buffs, naked, untalented. Fetch base stats (mention race) and base dodge.


Dwarf Paladin level 80 Protection spec'd but only with 3/3 Divinity and 3/3 SotP
No gear:
156 Str
86 Agi
165 Sta
97 Int
104 Spirit
0 armor
2.31% dodge
5% parry
21% block chance

Sta Gear:
1757 Str
128 Agi
4598 Sta
97 Int
104 Spirit
26475 Armor
22.32 Dodge (tooltip says 1209 dodge rating adds 26.72% before DR)
15.47 Parry (tooltip says 539 parry rating adds 11.91% parry before DR)
21% Block chance
Mastery 8 (base mastery, no rating)

Avoidance/Mastery Gear:
1712 Str
158 Agi
4336 Sta
97 Int
104 Spirit
25327 Armor
20.65% Dodge (tooltip says 1039 dodge rating adds 22.96% before DR)
16.39% Parry (tooltip says 596 rating adds 13.17% parry before DR)
38.16% Block
16.58 Mastery (394 rating adds 8.58 mastery)

Ret Gear (no defensive stats - nightmare tear for added int/spirit), no talents or spec choice
1820 Str
496 Agi
2696 Sta
107 Int
114 Spirit
15670 armor
9.64% dodge
5.00% parry
5.00% block


294 Agi - 7.97% dodge
219 Agi - 4.88% dodge
117 Agi - 2.92% dodge

Varying only dodge but not agi or parry
1209 Dodge Rating - 26.72% before DR - 22.32% dodge on char sheet
1141 Dodge Rating - 25.22% before DR - 21.55% dodge on char sheet
1014 Dodge Rating - 22.41% before DR - 20.03% dodge on char sheet
941 Dodge Rating - 20.80% before DR - 19.17% dodge on char sheet
839 Dodge Rating - 18.54% before DR - 17.78% dodge on char sheet
766 Dodge Rating - 16.93% before DR - 16.77% dodge on char sheet
579 Dodge Rating - 12.80% before DR - 13.86% dodge on char sheet * this also has a -10 agi from 1 shifting dreadstone

The only thing that changes when I have an empty talent spec is that my stamina gets reduced and my block rating becomes 5% (because I lose Divine Bulwark).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Arianne » Sat Sep 25, 2010 1:38 pm

theckhd wrote:That shouldn't be too hard though, I really just need to compare 0/3 to 3/3 and see how much of an increase we get. The other two sets (1/3 and 2/3) are just sanity checks.

Also, try and take note of Censure damage if you could. It scales with SP and AP, so performing the test naked (except for weapon) might be better for that. I think SotP might be affecting Censure based on Kysen's data in another thread, this test would confirm or refute that.


http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/u67j ... details/9/

This is a log of 5 minute increments of testing of SotP with ~1 minute intervals in between on the Heroic Training Dummy in Exodar on the PTR 9/25/2010. I tried to make sure there was nothing affecting damage on the dummy and some extended pauses were to wait for things to wear off. The dummy appears to be bugged in that Frost Fever does not have a duration and is always present. I dunno if that would cause any issues.

This was done with the same set of gear except for varying weapons.
1: No Talents. Mithrios 271 reforged to have 15 mastery (56 str, 239.4 dps, 111 sta, parry 74, expertise 23, mastery 15).
2: Protection + 3/3 Divinity. Mithrios
3: Protection + 3/3 Divinity. Last Word (250.5 dps, 124 sta)
4: Protection + 3/3 Divinity. Bloodfall (2 hand, 325.8 dps, 175 agi, 251 sta, 60 str, 122 crit strike, 98 haste)
5: Protection + 3/3 Divinity + 1 SotP. Mithrios
6: Protection + 3/3 Divinity + 1 SotP. Last Word
7: Protection + 3/3 Divinity + 2 SotP. Mithrios
8: Protection + 3/3 Divinity + 2 SotP. Last Word
9: Protection + 3/3 Divinity + 3 SotP. Mithrios
10:Protection + 3/3 Divinity + 3 SotP. Last Word (10 minutes)
Last edited by Arianne on Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Sep 25, 2010 2:09 pm

Thanks. Just looking at parses 3 and 10, it's clear that you get a 15% boost to Censure's tick damage with 3 points in SotP. Myth confirmed!
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Arianne » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:07 pm

Need anything else?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:15 pm

Arianne wrote:Need anything else?

More time to code! :P
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Sep 25, 2010 3:59 pm

Just committed what is likely the "final" version of prio_sim, as far as framework is concerned. I abandoned the "on-the-fly" damage calculations - they gave me no more flexibility than the post-processing versions and slowed the simulation down significantly.

The sample queue seems to be giving good results. A simulation of one hour of combat (36000 timesteps of 0.1s each) gives me consistency within +/- 10 DPS for each ability in the queue, and only takes roughly 10 seconds on my laptop. It should scale mostly linearly, so a 5-hours simulation should only take about a minute. Obviously it'll all be faster on a faster machine.

I have a raid tonight and want to try and spend some time on the beta before that. I'll try and find some time tomorrow to continue coding. Here's where we're going next:

1) I'd like one or two people to check the prio_sim code for consistency. Read over it and see if it makes sense, ask questions about how it works, run it and see if the results are sensible. I didn't comment it as well as I would like, but it should be fairly obvious what's going on.

2) We need to nail down the ability_module code to make sure it's spitting out reasonable ability damages. I plan on defining a default gear set comprised of the tanking gear on the lvl 85 premades on beta - using this and no buffs, we should be able to check for significant errors in this module. If anyone would like to work one step ahead of me and parse a bunch of abilities on a boss dummy with a premade for me, that would be great. What we're looking for is the average damage each ability does to an un-debuffed dummy. For a "default" spec, just spec into every prot talent and none in ret or holy, that way there's no question what talents we have.

3) We need to code prio_model with all of the possible priority queues we're interested in. This includes everything from AS>CS vs. CS>AS to replacing ShoR with Inq for single targets to AoE rotations. If you guys could get brainstorming about realistic possibilities for rotations and post them here, that would help. As an example, the default is:
Code: Select all
Judge (for SD) if 'hopo>=3 && ccd.CS>1.5 && ccd.Jud<=0 && dur.SD<=0';...
ShoR      if 'hopo>=3';...
CS        if 'ccd.CS<=0';...
Judgement if 'ccd.Jud<=0';...
AS        if 'ccd.AS<=0';...
Holy Wra  if 'ccd.HoWr<=0'; ...
Cons      if 'ccd.Cons<=0'};


There are a number of obvious variations we'll want to try though. For example:

SD>ShoR>AS>CS>Jud>HoWr>Cons ("Is it worth pushing CS back for AS?)
SD>ShoR(if ccd.CS<1.5)>AS>ShoR>CS>Jud>HoWr>Cons ("Is it worth saving ShoR for the very last second?")
SD>AS>ShoR>CS>Jud>HoWr>Cons ("Is it worth pushing CS and ShoR back for AS?")
AS>ShoR>CS>Jud>HoWR>Cons ("Is it worth trying to get Sacred Duty procs?")
SD>(2+)ShoR (if SD up)>CS>Jud>AS>HoWr>Cons ("Is it worth using ShoR with 2 holy power as long as SD is active?")
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Alandrek » Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:57 pm

Testing to see whether Inquisition is better than Shield of the Righteous is simple.

Inquisition buffs all Holy damage by 30% and lasts 12 seconds with 3 Holy Power. So if 30% of all our other Holy damage is more than SotR would hit for, Inquisition becomes better. Technically, there is one GCD that won't be covered by Inquisition each time, but that should be the CS that gives us our third Holy Power for the next Inquisition.

1 / 1.3 = 0.7692 (the break-even point for total Holy damage other than SotR)

So if SotR is less than 23.08% of our total Holy damage, Inquisition becomes better for single-target threat.

EDIT: Actually, there's one more factor - that CS after Inquisition fades will proc the SoT instant damage, which won't be affected by Inquisition. There's also a chance of an auto-attack during that GCD. However, if the code determines ability damage before it runs priority simulations it could use 23% as a test to determine whether it's worth bothering to test for replacing SotR with Inquisition for single-target.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:45 pm

While that's true in a general sense, it's not a sufficient condition. By looking at holy damage in aggregate, you're averaging out all of our holy abilities.

However, not all GCDs are created equal. Since HW and Cons are on fairly long cooldowns, there will be periods in our rotation where Inq is more attractive than others.

Example, ignoring GC procs:

ShoR-CS-J-X-CS-X-X-CS-J-ShoR-CS-HW-Cons-CS-J-X-CS-ShoR-X

Now if you replace the first ShoR with Inq, you just get two Judgements worth of boost (plus any AS procs). However, if you replace the second ShoR with Inq, you buff the underline section - J, HW, and Cons (again, plus any AS procs). So using Inq lined up with your Cons cooldown could potentially be a DPS increase, even when ShoR is more damage than the limiting condition you listed.

Of course, this will all depend somewhat on the final damage tuning of Cons, HW, and Judgement.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Alandrek » Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:53 pm

True - I was ignoring Consecration in particular, probably because I'm hoping they'll adjust our rotation so we don't want to use it for single-target tanking.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Lionnis » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:26 pm

Alandrek wrote:True - I was ignoring Consecration in particular, probably because I'm hoping they'll adjust our rotation so we don't want to use it for single-target tanking.


Same, currently to me the rotation feels pretty "clunky" with the downtime. It's not terrible but I think they could make some improvements by giving us one more option to push. Maybe an exo proc or something, i'm not sure really yet. It has potential though, I look forward to them adjusting it.

The rotation i was using to start out for single target was.

CS, AS, ShoR, Judgement Trying to mix in Holy Wrath whenever possible, i had no mana issues. Wouldn't mind seeing possibly judgement generating a holy power though or something to that effect.

Looking forward to the theorycrafting and more testing.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:47 am

Requesting a very specific data set to finish up the ability_model module.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:11 pm

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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:09 am

Indeed, that is possibly the most important graph I've ever created.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby wrathblood » Sun Oct 10, 2010 8:56 pm

How much worse for threat is Seal of Insight vs Seal of Truth?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:41 am

I don't know. But I should have answers to that and most other questions soon(TM).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Oct 11, 2010 2:47 pm

I guess I'll add Insight to the things to make a parse on.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 11, 2010 4:49 pm

Default Gear Set

This is the default gear set I'm using for the calculations on this page. It's loosely based off of the gear I had on Theck this past summer, which should still adequately represent an average tank progressing on ICC25 hard modes (i.e. able to kill early hard modes, but probably still working on PP/Sindra/LK).

Sanctified Lightsworn Plate (Heroic)
Bile Encrusted Medallion (Heroic)
Sentinel's Winter Cloak
Gargoyle Spit Bracers (Heroic)
Verdigris Chain Belt
Grinning Skull Greatboots (Heroic)
Deviums Eternally Cold Ring (Heroic)
Ashen Band of Endless Courage
Corroded Skeleton Key
Sindragosa's Flawless Fang
Last Word (Heroic)
Icecrown Glacial Wall (Heroic)
Libram of the Eternal Tower

I've left the socketing alone for the most part, since the socket bonuses haven't changed. That means 30 stam in every blue or yellow socket, but instead of agi/stam in red sockets I've used parry/stam (assuming they give 9 or more stamina per red gem).

Each item has had its highest avoidance stat (dodge or parry) reforged into mastery in an attempt to reach block cap. I managed to get to around 100% but no further without swapping armor items out for more avoidance.

Enchants are:
Arcanum of the Stalwart Protector
Greater Inscription of the Pinnacle
Enchant Cloak - Mighty Armor
Enchant Chest - Super Health
Enchant Bracer - Major Stamina
Heavy Borean Armor Kit
Frosthide Leg Armor
Enchant Boots - Tuskarr's Vitality
Enchant Ring - Stamina x2
Enchant Weapon - Accuracy
Enchant Shield - Major Stamina

Net stats
Most of these are recognizable enough to be understandable, but until I get them into the glossary feel free to ask. We've used "ph" and "sp" as shorthands for physical and spell, "dr" for damage reduction
str: 2178
sta: 5625
agi: 290
int: 102
armorystr: 1830
hitpoints: 63279
armor: 2.9026e+004
phdr: 0.6357
resistance: 0
spdr: 0
phhit: 4.8448
sphit: 11.6801
exp: 23.0294
phhaste: 10.0000
sphaste: 5.0000
effhaste: 0
phgcd: 1.5000
spgcd: 1.4286
phcrit: 6.9757
spcrit: 11.4940
aacrit: 6.9757
sp: 1398
hsp: 1398
mast: 18.2819
miss: 4.4000
dodge: 20.3412
parry: 20.0368
block: 55.2221
avoid: 44.7779
avoidpct: 0.4478
VengAP: 6.0115e+003
ap: 11646
wdamage: 1.9483e+003
ndamage: 2.4475e+003
swing: 1.6364
reck: 0.3007
wswing: 1.2100
wdps: 1.6103e+003
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Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:00 pm

Ability damage

Setup:
Talents: 0/31/5 with all prot damage talents + Crusade
Glyphs: N/A
Seal: N/A
Gear: T10 sample set

Code: Select all
                Damage
Ability    Raw    Net  Glyph
ShoR     15546  14324  15756
CS        4063   3743   3912
JoT       5177   5363   5899
AS        8888   9044  11757
HW        3329   3806      0
HoW       3492   4516      0
Exor      3141   3145   3774
SoT        388    415      0
SoR        356    356      0
SoJ        162    162      0
Cens      9635  10307      0
Cons      6629   6637      0
HotR       606    559    615
HaNova    4912   4321      0
Melee     1296   1132      0


Raw is the damage one would expect on a regular hit without target damage reduction. Net incorporates damage redux, hit/miss, and crit factors. Glyph is the same as net, but with that ability's glyph active. Censure damage is for a 5-stack over 15 seconds, and Consecration is a full 10 ticks. "HaNova" is HotR's AoE "holy nova" component.

A stark change from the Wrath model of paladin tanking, our abilities now cover a wide range of damage values. I'm going to come back to this post and address DPS values/plots once we have our rotation nailed down (more on that later).

In the meantime, here's a plot of net damage for each ability, to give you some feeling of the damage range we're talking about:
Image
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Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 11, 2010 5:45 pm

Rotation Simulations

The rotation simulation code is available on the matlabadin project page, as are the priority models used.

Setup:
Talents: 0/31/5 with all prot damage talents + Crusade
Glyphs: CS/Jud/ShoR for Prime, AS for Major
Seal: SoT
Gear: T10 sample set

There are some subtleties here that I want to discuss before addressing the data. The simulation works by simulating a limited combat environment. It keeps track of ability cooldowns, holy power, and the GCD, iterating in user-definable time steps. At each time step, it checks the priority queue in order and casts the first thing for which the conditionals are true.

While it's capable of incorporating haste effects (by working in time steps of 0.1s or less), that leads to some weird situations. For example, since Holy Wrath is a spell it has a shorter GCD than a melee attack like Crusader Strike. Thus, you can end up in a situation that looks like this:

CS-HW-????

If your Holy Wrath GCD is shorter than 1.5 seconds by at least one full timestep, CS still won't be off of cooldown. However, if something else is (Judgement perhaps, or Consecration) it'll try and cast that instead. That pushes CS back by almost a full GCD, inevitably causing a massive drop in DPS.

Because of this, I've simulated in time steps of 0.5 seconds, which is essentially throwing out haste as far as our spellcast choices are concerned. Since we are unlikely to want to deviate from casting CS on every alternate cooldown, this shouldn't be an issue.

In the queues below, there are some non-standard abbreviations:

SD stands for Sacred Duty, and means that in a case where you have 3 Holy Power, no Sacred Duty buff, and Judgement is off of cooldown, you prioritize Judgement (instead of just casting ShoR) to "fish" for a Sacred Duty proc.

J# stands for "Judgement #," and means that we treat Judgement as having an effective cooldown of #. "J8" would be the "standard" mode, and is implicit anywhere that a lone "J" is encountered. "J9" treats Judgement as having a 9-second effective cooldown, which is mostly irrelevant for us, but can cause strange things to happen when you prioritize AS over Judgement.

#ShoR stands for an #-point ShoR. If the number is omitted, it's assumed to be a 3-pointer.

2SDShoR stands for an 2-point ShoR if and only if Sacred Duty is up.

The simulation is run for 90k time steps, which is 30k GCDs, or roughly 12 and a half hours of combat. That's a long time, but random procs are random, and it's still entirely possible to get variations of 10-20 DPS from sim to sim. This is pretty evident from rotations #2 and #10, which are functionally identical queues because the cooldown clashes make SD prioritization irrelevant. However, #2 has 38 more AS casts than #10 due to lucky GC procs, which gives it an edge of about 30 DPS.

Code: Select all
Q#         Priority                              DPS   Empty    E%
1   SD>ShoR>CS>J>AS>Cons>HW                    7837     32   0.1
2   SD>ShoR>CS>J>AS>HW                         7776     43   0.1
3   SD>ShoR>CS>AS>J8>HW                        7694    833   1.5
4   SD>ShoR>CS>AS>J9>HW                        7336   2195   7.3
5   SD>ShoR>CS>AS>J8>HW>Cons                   7703    525   0.7
6   SD>ShoR>CS>AS>J9>HW>Cons                   7426   1403   4.7
7   SD>ShoR>AS>CS>J>HW>Cons                    7637   1114   2.3
8   SD>AS>ShoR>CS>J>HW>Cons                    7640    982   2.1
9   AS>SD>ShoR>CS>J>HW>Cons                    7636   1036   2.2
10   ShoR>CS>J>AS>HW                            7767      0   0.0
11   ShoR>CS>AS>J>HW                            7695    144   0.5
12   ShoR>AS>CS>J>HW                            7609   1268   3.0
13   AS>ShoR>CS>J>HW                            7573   1487   3.4
14   SD>3ShoR>2SDShor>CS>J>AS>HW                6728   2041   3.1
15   Inq>3ShoR>CS>J>AS>HW (Inq model)           7258      0   0.0
16   Inq>3ShoR>CS>AS>J>HW (Inq model)           7421    155   0.5
17   Inq>3ShoR>2SDShoR>CS>J>AS>HW (Inq model)   6412   1207   1.5


Second data set, to give you an idea of the variance:
Code: Select all
1   SD>ShoR>CS>J>AS>Cons>HW                    7812     40   0.1
2   SD>ShoR>CS>J>AS>HW                         7770     39   0.1
3   SD>ShoR>CS>AS>J8>HW                        7710    849   1.6
4   SD>ShoR>CS>AS>J9>HW                        7321   2285   7.6
5   SD>ShoR>CS>AS>J8>HW>Cons                   7695    553   0.8
6   SD>ShoR>CS>AS>J9>HW>Cons                   7433   1392   4.6
7   SD>ShoR>AS>CS>J>HW>Cons                    7629   1064   2.2
8   SD>AS>ShoR>CS>J>HW>Cons                    7651    976   2.1
9   AS>SD>ShoR>CS>J>HW>Cons                    7649   1033   2.2
10   ShoR>CS>J>AS>HW                            7758      0   0.0
11   ShoR>CS>AS>J>HW                            7671    160   0.5
12   ShoR>AS>CS>J>HW                            7579   1291   3.1
13   AS>ShoR>CS>J>HW                            7558   1496   3.4
14   SD>3ShoR>2SDShor>CS>J>AS>HW                6735   2025   3.1
15   Inq>3ShoR>CS>J>AS>HW (Inq model)           7252      0   0.0
16   Inq>3ShoR>CS>AS>J>HW (Inq model)           7459    143   0.5
17   Inq>3ShoR>2SDShoR>CS>J>AS>HW (Inq model)   6427   1126   1.5


There are lots of observations to be made here, and I hope to come back to this post and discuss some of the more subtle ones in more detail. But for now, here are the big ones that matter:

  • Cons>HW (#1 vs #2) at the end of the queue is a slight DPS increase, if we can afford the mana. Note that this sim already includes Hallowed Ground, so if you don't spec that it's basically dead even (i.e. not worth the mana cost).
  • Despite being our "signature" move, Avenger's Shield is relatively low priority.
    • Putting it above Judgement inevitably causes empty GCDs and a drop in DPS, no matter what else you try and fill the rest of the queue with.
    • That said, the difference between #10 and #11 is relatively small, so it won't hurt you much to prioritize AS>J.
    • Putting it above CS or higher is always a significant DPS loss.
  • Given that there isn't a significant difference between #2 and #10, Sacred Duty prioritization isn't worth bothering with. It causes empty GCDs thanks to ShoR misses that offsets any benefit it might convey. It can help in a few situations with high AS priorities, but those are always sub-optimal anyway.
  • 2-point ShoR's are always a DPS loss even if you only use it on a guaranteed crit.
  • Inquisition is always a DPS loss. Interestingly, with Inq up you actually start to see AS>J pull ahead of J>AS, but neither are as good as using that Holy Power on ShoR.


TLDR Summary
  • Our new queue is ShoR>CS>J>AS>HW. Feel free to slip Cons in above HW if the boss is stationary and mana isn't an issue.
  • This is equivalent to the following (dubbed "939") rotation: CS-J-CS-X-CS-ShoR, where X is filled with AS if it's available, or HW otherwise.
  • Yes, this is bad news for Grand Crusader. More on that soon.
Last edited by theckhd on Tue Oct 12, 2010 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: corrected data
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Postby theckhd » Mon Oct 11, 2010 7:26 pm

Talent Comparison

Setup:
Talents: 5/38/10 with all relevant damage talents (see analysis)
Glyphs: CS/Jud/ShoR for Prime, AS for Major
Seal: SoT
Gear: T10 sample set


To do this analysis, we use a reduction strategy. We start with an unpossible spec that contains every relevant damage talent we have access to in all 3 trees, and record the simulated and modeled DPS output.

We then set each talent to 0 points spent one at a time and repeat the sim/model. The difference was the effect of that talent, and the difference per point is simply that value divided by the number of points we dropped.

I've done this three ways - first with the simulator, and then twice with the analytical model (see the post on the next page). The first model covers ShoR>CS>J>AS>HW, the second covers ShoR>CS>J>AS>Cons>HW (for hallowed ground handling). Note that I haven't glyphed Consecration here, but you could conceivably do so to get a 20% increase to the effect per talent point of Hallowed Ground.

Code: Select all
                           DPS per point
Talent                     Sim  Model   w/Cons
SotP                      43.4   43.4    ---
Hallowed Ground            0.0    0.0   18.0
WotL                     284.4  277.6  272.1
Reckoning                 97.8   97.8    ---
Arbiter of the Light      23.2   22.7    ---
JotP                      30.6   30.6    ---
Crusade                   76.5   74.8    ---
Rule of Law               40.5   39.5    ---
Grand Crusader            53.9   46.7    ---
Sacred Duty              287.3  283.4    ---


Image

The first thing to notice is that Sacred Duty and WotL are head and shoulders above our other talents. Those four points alone are responsible for over 1000 DPS.

The next big talent is Reckoning. Yes, I said it. Reckoning. Oh Reckoning, how we have pined for you to some day grow up and become a real, viable DPS talent. Well, the devs must have listened, because that day is now here.

Reckoning clocks in at almost 100 DPS because of the heavy reforging into mastery. This will drop down to around 40-50 DPS per point at very low mastery, but since we'll want to be nearly block-capped the larger value is more relevant.

Continuing down the line, we have Crusade clocking in at around 75 DPS per point. A far cry from the Crusade we knew and loved in Wrath, but still one of the more potent choices we have.

Then we reach a slight plateau of three talents: Grand Crusader, SotP, and Rule of Law. All three of these talents are pretty good, but Rule of Law isn't accessible to us at 80. Interestingly, GC is better than SotP by a tiny bit, and has the additional benefit of giving you an interrupt and a ranged ability that much earlier. So despite the fixed rotation that 939 has shackled us with, Grand Crusader didn't turn out to be as terrible as it could have been.

Judgements of the Pure sits somewhere in-between the Grand Crusader tier and the "Lolwut you specced that" tier. It's only worth 30 DPS per point, which for comparison is about what Reckoning was (per point, when points were "cheaper") in Wrath. JotP (and by extension AotL and HG) are probably beneath the threshold of efficiency for anything other than a pure "max DPS" spec.

Arbiter of the Light and Hallowed Ground bring up the rear. It's worth noting that Hallowed Ground is a minor DPS increase on paper, but the mana efficiency that the talent gives you could translate into a slightly better value (because you might not be able to cast consecration without it!). It's also helpful for AoE tanking, which will likely become a concern in the next few weeks.

TLDR Summary:
  • Sacred Duty and Wrath of the Lightbringer are mandatory threat talents.
  • Reckoning now kicks ass. It's Reckommended (see what I did there?)
  • Crusade is also quite potent, and worth the 3 points if you have them.
  • Grand Crusader and Seals of the Pure are about equal and "decent" choices.
  • JotP, AotL, and Hallowed Ground are all "optional" from a single-target perspective.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby tlitp » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:39 pm

What's the rush ? Why are the ephemeral level 80 values important ? When we still have a lot of implementations/tweaks/cleanup ahead, spending time on level 80 computations is, in fact, wasting time. We've managed to port a good chunk of the 3.0 code in about 100 commits, what's the reason to divert the "war effort" ?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby seigert » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:44 pm

theckhd wrote:No time to make this pretty, as I need to get to bed. However, here's the talent sim output:

Code: Select all
Talent            DPS per point
JotP                      30.6
RoL                       40.5
Grand Crusader            53.9



Theckhd, could you please later simulate impact of 1/2 point GrCr and 2/3 points JotP & RoL? I'm pretty sure it's a linear function, but...

P.S.: Well, seems like i didn't saw 'DPS per point' column name...
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby daiceman » Tue Oct 12, 2010 2:32 am

I'm not sure if this belongs in here, but at level 80 at least on the ptr, you currently gain (x-66)*.25 parry rating per strength ROUNDED to the nearest integer. I find this really weird that its rounded, maybe I made some error, but equipping multiple sets of gear shows me that it is correct.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB thread - Cataclysm/4.x

Postby knaughty » Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:24 am

tlitp wrote:What's the rush ? Why are the ephemeral level 80 values important ?

Because people (including me) want some sort of basis for working out how to spec tomorrow.

The numbers Theck's provided are driving my 4.0 Basic FAQ.
Last edited by knaughty on Tue Oct 12, 2010 5:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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