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DPS value of Heroism

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DPS value of Heroism

Postby Magnusharkov » Tue Aug 24, 2010 4:42 am

Hey guys, after having a conversation with some folks about heroism being "overrated" I've been trying to think through it a bit and start looking at numbers to back my point up. Here's the assumptions I'm making:

1) 30% more haste = 30% more raid dps. I know this is a very very inaccurate claim but I don't have enough numbers to give an accurate value and I don't want to appear biased. I'd expect that even when stacking cooldowns with heroism you'd only be looking at a 20% raid dps boost from 30% haste as a lot of classes just don't scale all that well with it.

2) Everyone is alive under heroism and that the fight has no dps critical burn phases, it's just the overall fight length that matters.

3) The effect of heroism on healers is a nice benefit but for now isn't relevant in a dps discussion.

So some basic numbers. I'd say the fastest non trivial fight time that's worth looking at is 4 minutes or 240 seconds. Heroism is 40 seconds so on a 4 minute fight is up one sixth of the time. If you assume that heroism is a 30% dps boost which is active for one sixth of the fight then you're looking at heroism being a 5% raid dps boost.

However I'd say this is an optimistic view, with both the dps effect and uptime being higher than i'd expect as typical. I wouldn't be at all surprised if many logs could be produced on longer fights that show the effect as being half as much.

Personally I just find it odd how people have a blind spot about heroism being absolutely essential which I largely think is down to its very dramatic and cool visual effect on the raid. I wouldn't be at all surprised if in quite a lot of situations buffs like CoE and even sanctified retribuion have a bigger dps boost than the availability of heroism on a non phased fight.

If anyone has any thoughts or numbers on the topic i'd be very interested to hear them.
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Re: DPS value of Heroism

Postby hoho » Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:11 am

What makes bloodlust/heroism good is when people know when it's coming and they use their personal cooldowns together with it. E.g 30% haste (let's say 30% damage increase for simplicity) for 40s and 20% increased damage for 20s when used at different times will give quite different results. Over that 4min fight it would be around 5% from BL and ~1.6(6)% from that personal cooldown for a total of 6.(6)%. However if you use that cooldown during BL you'll get 1.3*1.2=1.56x damage increase for 20s (~4.(6)%) and 30% boost from the rest of the bloodlust for ~2.5%. Total ~7.1(6)% damage increase. Yea, difference is not exactly huge but if you have more cooldowns to burn it will get bigger.

Add in stuff like timing cooldowns with trinket procs and multiplicative nature of BL/cooldowns gets increased even more.
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Re: DPS value of Heroism

Postby theckhd » Tue Aug 24, 2010 5:48 am

Magnusharkov wrote:Personally I just find it odd how people have a blind spot about heroism being absolutely essential which I largely think is down to its very dramatic and cool visual effect on the raid. I wouldn't be at all surprised if in quite a lot of situations buffs like CoE and even sanctified retribuion have a bigger dps boost than the availability of heroism on a non phased fight.


Keep in mind that the value of heroism will also vary a bit based on group composition. Casters tend to get a bigger benefit from haste than melee classes. But I'd still expect it to be in the 5-10% range due to multiplicative effects. If you pop trinkets or special abilities that benefit from haste during Heroism, you have to count the extra damage you get due to that interaction.

That said, the real benefit of hero is not just extra raid DPS. It's extra raid DPS/HPS on-demand, which matters when you're not limiting yourself to tank-and-spank fights (and technically every fight is phased thanks to Execute mechanics). Having hero to shorten the length of very dangerous phases can often make or break an encounter for a given raid group (Saurfang frenzy, Putricide P3, Sindragosa P3, LK 2nd transition, Anub'Arak P3).
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Re: DPS value of Heroism

Postby Kelaan » Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:35 pm

theckhd wrote:(... technically every fight is phased thanks to Execute mechanics). Having hero to shorten the length of very dangerous phases can often make or break an encounter...


I recall (but cannot link) a really interesting thread at EJ a year or two (three?) ago which proved that Heroism at the Start (~15 secs in) was basically the same effect on raid DPS (better, in fact) than Heroism for Execute Range. The Execute range was cleared faster, but it took longer to get there, etc. Heroism at the start also lets you use CDs multiple times more easily, so as to maximize use of things like Wings or other damage boosts.

I think you hit on the core strength, though: Heroism/Bloodlust lets you get through HARD parts of the fight better -- whether that's P3 Putricide, or a healing phase in the middle, or even the initial part of Faction Champions or Maulgaur.
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Re: DPS value of Heroism

Postby PsiVen » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:43 pm

Boosting damage also can have increased effect when heals are going off that normally counteract some damage -- Faction Champions as you mentioned is greatly shortened in the start by heroism when things aren't going perfectly.
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Re: DPS value of Heroism

Postby Epimer » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:08 am

Kelaan wrote:I recall (but cannot link) a really interesting thread at EJ a year or two (three?) ago which proved that Heroism at the Start (~15 secs in) was basically the same effect on raid DPS (better, in fact) than Heroism for Execute Range.


The discussion is in the Benefactors' Bar, but Binkenstein made a blog post about it here and there's a very short discussion on the topic here. I would have sworn there was a better Theorycrafting Think Tank article on it for a while but it's not there any more, just the Execute timing/cooldown usage one.
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Re: DPS value of Heroism

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:05 am

There was also a discussion about it here on maintankadin.


<edit> I should add that the result Kelaan mentioned isn't true in general. It relies on the assumption that the benefit of Heroism is the same regardless of when it's used. That's usually not the case - it's a bigger DPS increase in Execute range than outside for some classes for one thing. The more trivial example is a fight where there's time spent moving and not DPSing - you wouldn't pop Heroism during the dance phase of Heigan or during the air phase of Sindragosa.

If you don't feel like reading through the whole thread again, I laid out a very general formulation here that can account for these effects.
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Re: DPS value of Heroism

Postby Kelaan » Mon Sep 20, 2010 1:48 pm

theckhd wrote:<edit> I should add that the result Kelaan mentioned isn't true in general. It relies on the assumption that the benefit of Heroism is the same regardless of when it's used. That's usually not the case - it's a bigger DPS increase in Execute range than outside for some classes for one thing.


It may be a bigger DPS increase for those people, but that means the execute-range effect may end sooner, meaning you have the potential to miss some value. (Well, less likely now: execute range on ICC bosses is very large.) Still, it's somewhat moot: as you and others have said, the best time to use Heroism is generally on a phase that you want to end soonest. (The main benefit of using it Right Away is that everyone can synchronize most of their cooldowns and still have them usable later... but often the Final Phase of a fight (or middle) is one you want to end fastest.
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Re: DPS value of Heroism

Postby theckhd » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:22 pm

Kelaan wrote:It may be a bigger DPS increase for those people, but that means the execute-range effect may end sooner, meaning you have the potential to miss some value. (Well, less likely now: execute range on ICC bosses is very large.)


That's only true in a very narrow window of parameter space though - namely that execute range lasts less than 40 seconds if you use hero for it and greater than 40 seconds if you use it pre-execute range. In that sort of a situation, you'd get "optimal" use of it by popping it (40-x) seconds before execute range, where x is the duration of execute range with hero active.
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Re: DPS value of Heroism

Postby knaughty » Tue Sep 21, 2010 3:18 am

Re "when to use Bloodlust" (not sure what this heroism thing is): Obvious answer is obvious:

  1. When it benefits you the most from an encounter mechanics perspective.
  2. As early as possible so it's up again ASAP - 10 min CD is 10 mins - blow it on trash if you have more than 10 mins worth.
  3. Not in execute range unless it is also a dangerous phase: If you got to execute range, WTF do you need lust for? Use it on the next boss instead.

What's important is efficiency of clearing the instance, not whether you kill the boss in 327 seconds instead of 328 due to timing when you pop BL.
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Re: DPS value of Heroism

Postby Spamdrew » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:25 am

Theck what Kelaan is trying to say is that just because some classes do more DPS during execute range doesn't actually make it more efficient to pop heroism them. This is because by doing so you shorten how long the execute phase is and thus people spend less time DPSing in execute range.

Quick example
2 DPS
A is a Fire Mage who does extra damage during sub 35% (lets say 20% more instead of the 12 it actually is)
B is an Arcane Mage who doesn't do extra damage during this period
Both do the same damage when the bosses is above 35%

Above 35% the boss loses 5% health each second from damage
Below 35% the boss loses 5.5% health each second(Fire Mage does 20% more damage)
So the boss dies after 19+2/5.5 (19.3636) seconds

Assume mini heroism lets both players do 5 seconds of damage in a 4 second period

If it is used at the start the fight obviously takes 18+2/5.5 (18.3636)

If you use it sub 35%
13 seconds for the fist 65%
During the first 4 seconds they do 27.5% damage (5.5 x 5)
They do the last 7.5% health in 1+2/5.5 (1.3636)
So they finish the fight in 13+4+1.3636=18.3636

So in exactly the same amount of time.

Thus Heroism should never be saved for the execute stage unless it is needed for other reasons.
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Re: DPS value of Heroism

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:02 am

Spamdrew wrote:Theck what Kelaan is trying to say is that just because some classes do more DPS during execute range doesn't actually make it more efficient to pop heroism them. This is because by doing so you shorten how long the execute phase is and thus people spend less time DPSing in execute range.


I don't think that's what Kelaan is trying to say. His wording, specifically "the potential to miss some value," suggests that he meant "The boss dies before Heroism ends." If that's not the case, then you don't "miss" any value of Heroism, making his choice of words confusing.

If it is what he's trying to say, then he's misinterpreted me, as have you in your example. The fact that some classes do more DPS in execute range does not have any effect on when you use hero, as your example (and the original post in the thread I linked) showed. Unfortunately, that was never my point.

In your example, you assume that heroism gives the same effect above and below execute range - that a player can do 5 seconds worth of DPS in 4 seconds. In other words, heroism gives the same % multiplier whenever you use it. That is the assumption that is faulty.

Some classes see a different % increase above and below execute range. For example, they may see a 5% DPS increase above, but a 10% increase below. That class would benefit more from Heroism below execute range than above it. Similarly, if a class saw a 10% increase above execute range but a 5% increase below, they'd benefit more by using it above, even if their raw DPS was higher below execute range.

This was all quite clearly laid out formally in the post I linked earlier in the thread. It's a generic formulation of the system that makes none of the above assumptions, and gives examples that demonstrate how to determine the optimum Heroism time for minimizing fight length.

At the very least, it should be enough to convince you that this statement:
Spamdrew wrote:Thus Heroism should never be saved for the execute stage unless it is needed for other reasons.

is completely unfounded.
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Re: DPS value of Heroism

Postby Spamdrew » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:56 pm

That isn't what the thread concluded. So if that was your message it didn't get through to the masses. The last definitive conclusion posted on that thread was;

Elsie wrote:
Majiben wrote:The additional 20 seconds is for the second AW to run it's full course.

Ideally we should add about 5s for positioning, too, but... meh.

Not to mention it doesn't matter if you use wings before or after 25% for the same reason as Bloodlust. Basically, any CD Based DPS Increase functions indepedently from time based increases. A CD before the time-based increase just means you have less time in "Lower DPS" phase, reach "Higher DPS" phase sooner but stay in it longer. So:
Option 1: Use CDs before n%
Effect: Less time before n% at DPS = X, more time before n% at DPS=X+A.
Result: Net boss kill time is the same since you reach n% sooner, thus doing X+A damage sooner.


Based on this theorycraft from EJerks: http://elitistjerks.com/blogs/binkenste ... lents.html

Now this might be wrong but that was what I understood the conclusion to be.
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Re: DPS value of Heroism

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:16 pm

Elsie's post is not a "definitive conclusion." He's talking specifically about buffs that give a time-invariant percentage increase. In other words, a cooldown that gives you a 20% boost regardless of when you use it.

The EJ post you linked makes the same assumption. None of the math they have is incorrect under those conditions.

The "conclusion" arrived at in that thread was that this basic assumption is probably not that accurate. The assumption that Bloodlust gives you a multiplicative factor of X% regardless of when you use it is likely incorrect, because certain classes gain a bigger percentage increase when used in execute range.

One example that's been thrown around is warriors. Their rage generation increases with haste, and with higher rage generation they get more execute damage, which gives them a nonlinear increase. Thus, bloodlust might give them 10% extra damage when used above execute range, but 15% below (numbers made up to illustrate the point).

The math I laid out on page 5 of that thread does not make that assumption. If you plug in the expressions used in the EJ derivation, you'll get exactly the same answers they did. It's solving exactly the same math problem in a slightly different fashion.

However, my general formalism also lets you plug in much more complicated effects - any cooldowns you want to use, nonlinear scaling of abilities, bloodlust multipliers that differ above and below execute range, pretty much anything you can think of. And in a case like that of warriors, where BL represents a larger percentage multiplier below execute range than above it, the outcome can indeed favor saving it for execute range.

The best argument for using it early is that you're nearly guaranteed that everyone is alive. Any time you lose a player, the potential damage of saving heroism just went down a little.
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Re: DPS value of Heroism

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 22, 2010 6:22 pm

In fact, reading through the comments, several commenters brought up this exact point:

Correct me if I've misunderstood something here, but doesn't all this math assume that the multiplicative cooldowns have an equal relative effect on DPS both above and below 35%?

I don't think that's a valid assumption: Warlocks have an execute mechanic in drain soul which drastically changes their rotation and causes their DPS to scale much better with haste.


The OP brushes them aside and says "no it doesn't assume that," but he's wrong. It definitely assumes that, right from the get-go:

A: Multiplicative modifier from popping cooldowns (example: Bloodlust/Heroism)


Of course, the OP mentioned that he wasn't good at algebra and was just reposting the results of others, which could be why he didn't understand this criticism.

To properly treat the problem (as I did), he would have to have two different multiplicative modifiers A1 and A2, for above and below heroism. In that case, they don't immediately cancel, and you get the results that I do in my general formulation.
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