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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Thalia » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:45 pm

Eaglestrike wrote:
Thalia wrote:As per what melathys says, i think it's because WoW is so ... i don't know. Not saying this is a bad thing, but it's easy. FFXI was hard, too hard when I first played so I quit a year later when I couldn't stand deleveling so much lol (you don't de-level in ffxiv). Anyway, I think the fact that the game is more challenging makes reward feel better. Kinda like the crafting system, it's damn hard to make a good item. So many things affect it. First off you have to learn to master the crafting mini games. Then you find out some attributes affect your craft, as well as the moon. Then ... you have to figure out recipes instead of them being handed to you.

Also, they make bosses interesting. One boss in FFXI...people weren't able to beat it for like a year cuz they couldn't figure out it's weakness. It was so simple in the end too.


FFXI wasn't hard, almost nothing about it is hard. It's sluggish, it's poorly programmed, it was poorly designed. When you couldn't beat something it was OFTEN because of something OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. There was almost nothing you could possibly do about it. That's not difficulty, that's just stupid. The response from the playerbase for YEARS (and still works TO THIS DAY) was to take the slowest, sure-fire way to respond to a situation, taking absolutely no risks whatsoever because there is simply NOTHING you can do to deal with it. It's poor design, not a game being "hard".

The "interesting" boss that took "like a year" to beat actually went unbeaten for 4-5 years. Everytime it was beaten it was considered a "glitch", and the glitch was removed. The playerbase begged for hints on how to kill the boss the entire time. The Dev team said NOTHING, then eventually gave in and released a video of them fighting the boss. IT SHOWED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. The boss was still undefeatable for 2 years after the video. The boss could not be beaten until recently with a level cap increase. That's not "interesting", that is absolutely fucking retarded design. You don't make a boss that is unable to be killed, by anyone, for years. Seriously it was a CoP boss (2nd expansion) and wasn't beaten until the end of the 4th expansion (which took 3 years to complete).

The crafting system isn't "hard", it's stupid. You ALWAYS have a chance to fail to make something, there is NOTHING you can do to make this chance 0% and to get the final points in a craft either takes excessive amounts of gil (that you often can't make through the craft at all unless you're one of the ONLY crafters active on the realm) or takes extremely rare materials that are often monopolized by a certain guild, so that IF they aren't passing it to a friend of theirs sell it for OBSCENE amounts of gil because they know everyone else is desperate.

I am not going to knock WoW, I played it for 5 years, but only because there was no better alternative to my style of wanting to play. Wow is fun and simple and funny, but IMO it's not rewarding. Dungeons are beaten withing the first few days of release. As soon as you get the best epic in the game, oh it's replaced with a new one in the next patch. People who don't put in the time can almost be as well geared as you... stuff like that. (This was not the case in Vanilla WoW)


"I can't be a special snowflake." is a poor thing to hold against a game, but whatever. I was a special snowflake in FFXI for years, I still WOULD be if I logged back in after a couple years from the game (I have a Mandau on my THF), but it's not something keeping me in love with FFXI.

FF has an amazing storyline, (the storyline will develop through NPC quests, not only guildleves).


Agreed, finally a pro I can approve. The FF storylines/cutscenes are emotional and dramatic.

Also, having the best piece of gear for a certain skill or action or class will last you for years..not weeks, and once you get it you get a great sense of accomplishment.


And nothing to do. Oh how I loved those days of staring at my Mog in my Mog House because the only possible upgrades that exist in the game take a crazy amount of work AND luck. Oh and did you fail to mention that you can also take years to get a single item because of the "hard" drop rates? Oh, right, I mean "luck" based drop rates. Pray to your RNG gods!

Again this isn't a WoW vs FFXIV thing, they are two different types of games, and I'm just noting why one appeals more to a certain set of people then the other.


FF games are appealing to masochists who have no idea what actual gameplay is supposed to be. Storyline is all well and good, but I'm not playing and paying for 1-2 days of storyline every 2-3 months, which is what FFXI turned into for me. I only get bored of overexposure with WoW, because there's so much to do and so much to repeat that I enjoy.

Also, the WoW storyline is pretty good. IMO, it's "better" than FF in terms of exactly what's going on. WoW makes more sense. FF storylines are just told in a way to bring out more emotion, which is a high point for sure. But I talk about WoW lore more than I do FF storylines, and there's far more WoW lore out there as well. Cataclysm is aiming to make story one of the top things about the game, it's looking excellent.


Talk about taking things personal and attacking someone's personal preferences. Cut the damn drama, this is my personal opinion about what i like and dislike about a certain game.

I didn't bash anyone for liking WoW more then FF, you sir are working yourself up for no reason. Say you think the game is dumb, WoW is better, cool, but don't call me a masochist for liking a game you don't.

I eventually didn't like FFXI enough to stay there or go back to it since the first year I quit. In this new game they are fixing a lot of the gripes I had with FFXI, and keeping the things I loved about it so I'm excited.

Now stop calling people idiots for liking something you don't and chillax, after all it's just a game.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Eaglestrike » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:49 pm

I called no one an idiot. I insulted the game, the only remark I made about the players of the game is said they were masochists. Considering I played the game for years...don't think that's the biggest most serious insult ever.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Brutalicus » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:55 pm

One point Eaglestrike mentioned was the lack of ability to make crafting a "sure thing." I gotta agree on that one. In my opinion, give every crafting recipe a rank. Determine the chance of failure by (your rank - recipe rank) and significantly attenuate the chance to fail so you'll fail hard recipes at low levels most of the time, but almost never fail an easy recipe.

It's possible that Eaglestrike's and my own opinion on this bit might be moot if the visual cues in crafting are working when FFXIV goes live. If you're high enough rank at crafting and you know what the visual cues mean, you should be able to succeed every time, right?
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Eaglestrike » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:58 pm

My points were all in regards to FFXI. I've only spent a little bit of time on FFXIV beta. In that time it's shown me to be slow and clunky, all because of the developer's not getting the coding right. That's one HUGE thing I've always liked about WoW: It works, it's smooth and fluid. It's far too annoying doing anything in FFXIV for me to get into it. And I've played other betas and no, they're not like that. It's NOT something that's going to get fixed. At least I really, REALLY doubt it will be.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Brutalicus » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:03 pm

Yeah, that was my least favorite thing about XI (though I only played for six months) and the day or so play time I've put into the FFXIV beta. I don't see it magically getting fixed either, but I've got to say if XIV ran as smooth as WoW the other little things wouldn't be nearly as frustrating.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Thalia » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:03 pm

FF games are appealing to masochists who have no idea what actual gameplay is supposed to be.


I found that offensive as a gamer. Aergis and I still mess around in FFXI occasionally purely for storyline reasons, we do know what gameplay should be like and we are not masochists.

"I can't be a special snowflake." is a poor thing to hold against a game, but whatever.


Me wanting to feel rewarded for something I worked hard for just felt better in Vanilla WoW and early FFXI, just how I felt and I don't feel like it's a poor thing to hold against a game. That's just IMO and that's what drives me to like playing games. The reward you feel when you kill a boss who has been challenging you for a while, or unlocking a story, and having something that only a small percentage of the game population has been able to get. I understand that some people are driven by other aspects of gaming to play, but for me and for others it's the "snowflake" syndrome, and it's a legitimate thing to care about in a game.

Other then that I'm fine with the rest of your statements. Take the insults out of your reviews and all is fine, let's not start a flame war here, this is NOT a WoW Vs FFXIV in the sense that one is better then the other. This thread should be to descimnate information to people who have questions, WoW is the best game to make comparatives too since this is a WoW board.
Last edited by Thalia on Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Flex » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:08 pm

Thalia wrote:Talk about taking things personal and attacking someone's personal preferences. Cut the damn drama, this is my personal opinion about what i like and dislike about a certain game.

I didn't bash anyone for liking WoW more then FF, you sir are working yourself up for no reason. Say you think the game is dumb, WoW is better, cool, but don't call me a masochist for liking a game you don't.


Your response is much more personal and attacking than his was to yours. Perhaps you should step back and evaluate? Additionally he never really compared the FF games to WoW except in storyline where they were compared for clarity vs emotional impact.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Eaglestrike » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:16 pm

Brutalicus wrote:Yeah, that was my least favorite thing about XI (though I only played for six months) and the day or so play time I've put into the FFXIV beta. I don't see it magically getting fixed either, but I've got to say if XIV ran as smooth as WoW the other little things wouldn't be nearly as frustrating.


If XIV ran as smoothly as WoW the only thing that'd really be keeping me on WoW's side is that my friends will be sticking to WoW, but when they eventually quit/take a break for Star Wars I'd be all over XIV. Unfortunately it's far too annoying to be stuck with XIV's gameplay, as interesting as a lot of it sounds.

The major problem with XI was always that they had amazing concepts with terrible implementation. I'm not really expecting that to be changed in XIV. A lot of it will sound great, but in actuality it's pretty terrible.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Thalia » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:20 pm

Eaglestrike wrote:
Brutalicus wrote:Yeah, that was my least favorite thing about XI (though I only played for six months) and the day or so play time I've put into the FFXIV beta. I don't see it magically getting fixed either, but I've got to say if XIV ran as smooth as WoW the other little things wouldn't be nearly as frustrating.


If XIV ran as smoothly as WoW the only thing that'd really be keeping me on WoW's side is that my friends will be sticking to WoW, but when they eventually quit/take a break for Star Wars I'd be all over XIV. Unfortunately it's far too annoying to be stuck with XIV's gameplay, as interesting as a lot of it sounds.

The major problem with XI was always that they had amazing concepts with terrible implementation. I'm not really expecting that to be changed in XIV. A lot of it will sound great, but in actuality it's pretty terrible.


Many people feel the devs will act the same as they did in FFXI, so I understand your hesitation and skepticism. I'm being optimistic that maybe they learned from their mistakes. We will only find out once the game begins. I often don't' like to keep my hopes up either when in the back of my mind I think they might not live up to my expectations.

But it's hard for me not to be optimistic from the information that has been put forth today. Plus, in a more personal stake, I want to build a damn wedding cake and have a wedding ceremony for me and Aergis. After all, we did meet in FFXI and never got a chance to get married in that game.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Brutalicus » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:24 pm

You could have wedding cakes in FFXI?
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Thalia » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:34 pm

Brutalicus wrote:You could have wedding cakes in FFXI?


No...just wedding ceremonies.

But this was just shown in that SE thing from yesterday:


See around the :51 mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cW56J8Gc5A&feature=player_embedded



You can build wedding cakes and make decorations to your liking, you will need help from other crafters to build them though.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Brutalicus » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:50 pm

That... was a hell of a cake. That's pretty cool, I had never heard anything about teaming up with other crafters. But it makes sense--instead of killing a boss with a lot of teeth with your party, you're crafting an item with a lot of awesome with your party (of crafters)!

Also, that video was trippy. It was a video inside a video inside a video. Now I don't know if I'm a video being watched by them.
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:54 pm

is there a cake eating skill

I will be all over that
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Kayoto » Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:53 am

For what it's worth, while Eaglestrike's tone could've been slightly less harsh, I pretty much completely agree.

It irks me to no end when people call something 'difficult' when what they really mean is time consuming. Almost nothing in FFXI was 'hard' or 'challenging' -- pretty much everything either took endurance or straight up luck, neither of which presented much of a challenge. (And no, I don't count "Don't accidentally use a skill/spell while standing 2 pixels behind the dragon, or it'll use a move that more or less one-shots the entire raid" as challenging)

The bosses were nowhere near as interesting from a mechanics perspective as WoW's (obviously), and the fights were ridiculously long. As Eaglestrike mentioned, Absolute Virtue (the boss that couldn't be beaten legitimately for years) was only unbeatable because they literally just gave it so much HP regen and strength that it wasn't feasible.

People who have only played WoW don't dislike some of FFXI's/FFXIV's mechanics because WoW is 'easier', but probably because WoW is convenient and less frustrating. It was infuriating to watch your incredibly expensive materials shatter into tiny pieces when you tried to craft something important in FFXI. It was just plain annoying having to wait 15~30 minutes just for an airship or barge to show up at the dock, to get around. It was boring that most boss strategies involved kiting the boss around for hours, or tank and spanking it.

Of course, on the other hand, because every little thing was so frustrating and took such ridiculous amounts of time to accomplish, you definitely got somewhat of a sense of entitlement from the rewards. But, much like Eaglestrike pointed out, this is sort of masochistic. How much of it you can tolerate, of course, varies from person to person -- but how much inconvenience and frustration do you really want to endure, for that feeling of accomplishment at the end? Especially when you know that your reward was derived from naught but time invested, and had nothing to do with skill or ingenuity.

It really is a shame, because FFXI really had some truly amazing things about it. On the topic of in-game weddings, for example, FFXI had incredible ones. My fiancé and I (we met in FFXI) had a Windurstian wedding, and the 'minister' was a GM playing as a Tarutaru (the short, cute race) who spoke in rhymes the entire ceremony. We had all our friends there, there were fireworks, it was on a cliff that you can't get to in any other way in-game, overlooking the ocean... It was really an awesome, awesome event that I'll always remember. Our FFXI in-game wedding date is also our anniversary, and we're going to have our real wedding on that day!

The cake decorating thing looks awesome in FFXIV. It almost makes me sad that I won't be playing, because I know that it'll have a bunch of cool stuff like that, but in the end, the game at its core (overall gameplay, combat, endgame activities, other mechanics) just won't be that good. =/
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Re: FFXIV New Trailer and Open Beta

Postby Arcand » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:02 am

Kayoto wrote:Of course, on the other hand, because every little thing was so frustrating and took such ridiculous amounts of time to accomplish, you definitely got somewhat of a sense of entitlement from the rewards. But, much like Eaglestrike pointed out, this is sort of masochistic. How much of it you can tolerate, of course, varies from person to person -- but how much inconvenience and frustration do you really want to endure, for that feeling of accomplishment at the end? Especially when you know that your reward was derived from naught but time invested, and had nothing to do with skill or ingenuity.


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