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Build 12924 (9/9/10)

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Re: Build 12924 (9/9/10)

Postby Arianne » Sat Sep 11, 2010 2:13 pm

What's the cooldown on Exorcism in build 12924?
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Re: Build 12924 (9/9/10)

Postby PsiVen » Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:52 pm

Exorcism has no cooldown. It also now costs as much as Divine Light, so it's pretty worthless outside AoW procs but now serves as a spammable nuke for Holy.

Sober wrote:
Loras wrote:So, they said TV will not be a subject of burst issues, cause it'll hit like a truck but you will need to accumulate HP through time, bla bla, but now if the stars align, you can throw several 3-point Verdicts in a row. I smell incoming QQ.

Ret design is circular. Apparently.

I wish they had an exception for Shield of Righteousness with the Holy Power consumption change. Or at least a glyph that refunds me x-1 or x-2 holy power that I spent on it if it's miss/dodge/parry/block-ed (and instead adds a cooldown to it or something to prevent spamminess or something).


Prot currently has the same unfortunate problem. In this build, they've added a 3-second interrupt to Avenger's Shield, meaning glyphed AS with back-to-back GC procs will not only be our only weapon in PvP, but an incredibly powerful RNG one. It'll be about the same burst as Ret with Hand of Light procs, except they'll be silenced, dazed and interrupted for the duration.
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Re: Build 12924 (9/9/10)

Postby Marblehead » Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:10 pm

Marblehead wrote:Holy Power mechanics update:

- Holy Power dissipates over time by a rate of 1 Holy Power lost per 10 seconds.
- Crusader Strike, Hammer of the Righteous and Holy Shock misses/dodges/parries award 1 Holy Power, as if they landed.
- If an ability that consumes Holy Power is a miss/dodge/parry, it consumes all Holy Power charges.

Correction:

- Shield of the Righteous consumes all the Holy Power when it's a miss/dodge/parry.
- Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm consume only 1 Holy Power when they're a miss/dodge/parry.
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Re: Build 12924 (9/9/10)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:18 pm

Marblehead wrote:
Marblehead wrote:Holy Power mechanics update:

- Holy Power dissipates over time by a rate of 1 Holy Power lost per 10 seconds.
- Crusader Strike, Hammer of the Righteous and Holy Shock misses/dodges/parries award 1 Holy Power, as if they landed.
- If an ability that consumes Holy Power is a miss/dodge/parry, it consumes all Holy Power charges.

Correction:

- Shield of the Righteous consumes all the Holy Power when it's a miss/dodge/parry.
- Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm consume only 1 Holy Power when they're a miss/dodge/parry.


How is this even fair for Protection Paladins!?

I really wish I was in the beta so I could post in the beta forums! Retribution Paladins are the ones that have the most holy power regen and they're the ones penalized the least with a dodge/parry/miss -- yet, protection, who has what seems to be the slowest hopow gen is the one that is penalized the most?
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Re: Build 12924 (9/9/10)

Postby Loras » Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:20 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Marblehead wrote:
Marblehead wrote:Holy Power mechanics update:

- Holy Power dissipates over time by a rate of 1 Holy Power lost per 10 seconds.
- Crusader Strike, Hammer of the Righteous and Holy Shock misses/dodges/parries award 1 Holy Power, as if they landed.
- If an ability that consumes Holy Power is a miss/dodge/parry, it consumes all Holy Power charges.

Correction:

- Shield of the Righteous consumes all the Holy Power when it's a miss/dodge/parry.
- Templar's Verdict and Divine Storm consume only 1 Holy Power when they're a miss/dodge/parry.


How is this even fair for Protection Paladins!?


Haven't you heard? They decided we are drowning in HoPo, while Rets barely make it for accumilating some, so they are balancing the reoursce for both specs.
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Re: Build 12924 (9/9/10)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:26 pm

I still wish they had left HoPow as a ret only resource -- it's just messing with the development of prot...
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Re: Build 12924 (9/9/10)

Postby Ragingsoul » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:21 pm

it's sad, the more the beta advances, the more I feel we won't have something decent when this expansion is gonna come out.
it's coming before the end of the year right? and they can't make it just before Christmas, so I would say end November.
I can't see this finished with something decent when numbers are not even been looked at yet, balance at 85 is still not looked upon, well, they even said themselves, quests rewards for lvl 84 are not all out yet.

I'm sorry for the negativity, but I hate CS, I hate a combo point system for tanks, I hate the 1000 procs ret has, which isn't skilled at all. I want my paladin to continue to be my main in cata, after 3 years of loyal services, but I just don't see it happen.

I said that to another thread, but there is a major difference with how feral/rogues work and how they want this to work, and at the moment, it's bound to fail. why?
because ferals/rogues delay their abilities on purpose to gain dps, with no cds on their main abilities. As long as the paladin class HAS to use abilities are soon as they are off gcd, the combo point rotation is bound to fail.

What they are doing, is pretty much putting a 4sec cd on mutilate and 4sec cd on escervate, and only have a single attack with no dot components as a finisher. So what are you going to do? spam either 1 ability that gives you combo points, hope that you don't have any procs to get more energy regen not to waste any, and hit your finisher as soon as you can. skill? no.
the fact that they change yet again the mastery to another proc is retarded. Zeal efficiency is getting weaker and weaker as you gain mastery, it's counter productive, and as a 31 point talent, it's just useless.

About prot, well, they make us spend 4 or 5 talent points in baseline abilities from warrior (-AP and -melee speed) and the rest is just + dmg on X, Y, or Z.
without looking at the numbers, we have nothing to do but wait for cds and even using every aoe ability we have as filler. The result? when something unexpected happen, you can't do anything about it, which makes you curse your class. putting avenger shield on the normal rotation is a mistake, because as all good tanks we are, we feel obligate not to use the proc if something bad happens (another pack is pulled for example). One of the definition of a good tank is a tank that can handle unexpected scenarios within reasonable range ofc. So you end up feeling bad, doing nothing for a few gcds, making spike threat, just to make sure you're a good tank. For me, that's not enjoying a game, the mechanics, the rotation, everything at the moment feels bad to me at least, and you have a lot lot less control over what's happening than on live. Now if I was a dps , well fine, I can't burst dps when I want to, it's not really a big deal (humm, lol, never mind that last bit). but as tank? it's your job to pick them first, it's your job to control the situation, it's your job to be the first doing an action when something comes up. at the moment, it's the other way around. you're the last person that is able to do something. I can also remind people that the dmg component as far as I can see from our single target taunt is removed, meaning, if your judgment and AS is on cd, you don't have anything to get them with. fun right? taunt + auto attack, and waiting for cds. tryed it, hated it the very first second.

all together, I don't see how it's fun, you don't feel happy when you waste holy power, even if it doesn't affect your dps, the same way a warrior is not gonna feel good when he pops an ability that would give him 100 rage if he is at 50 rage. yes, you still gain 50, but you're not using your cd to 100%, and at the moment, it's so random for rets, that you cannot NOT feel shit because you don't control anything whatsoever you're doing.

At this point, I'm praying for someone on their team to say : STOP. this isn't working, and try another way, but it's pretty late to change everything at the moment. It began as a concept, to try putting holy power, and now that it's hitting a corner, they don't want to back down and try something completely different.

Again, sorry for the negative inputs, but it's really how I feel. Any enh shamans or ret pala at high lvl (I play both prot and retri on LK25HC) will tell you that procs sucks. when you have them, you do some nice dps. when they don't proc, you suck, and after the fight, you don't say to yourself "I could have done better" because it's just about procs, and nothing more. some divine storm procs when you need them, can change your dps completely, especially on LK25 hc, and not having any procs for 15sec is just frustrating and not fun if it's a core mechanic concept.

I would post that on US forums if I could, but since there isn't even 1 single blue response on the EU forum, it feels completely useless, even more when the only response you get is some lvl10 saying "paladins are OP"it's good.
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Re: Build 12924 (9/9/10)

Postby Loras » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:31 pm

I feel the same tbh, with one slight difference - I like procs. That's all I've ever asked - to fit in a proc in the already existing paladin rotation. But the more I read, the more I find it clumsy and sad. No AoE Demo shout. No AoE attack speed debuff. No proper interrupt. No spammable ability to react to situations. Shittier block mechanics (we are teh block tanks. Riiiiight....). No snap aggro tool, especially in AoE situations (we will be built around Inquisition for AoE packs from what I read). Well, charge in, Crusader Strike once (at least for 1 HoPo), then Inquisition, then HotR. Great. And it's almost release time, so they won't make any major changes *sigh*.
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Re: Build 12924 (9/9/10)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:36 pm

Loras wrote:I feel the same tbh, with one slight difference - I like procs. That's all I've ever asked - to fit in a proc in the already existing paladin rotation. But the more I read, the more I find it clumsy and sad. No AoE Demo shout. No AoE attack speed debuff. No proper interrupt. No spammable ability to react to situations. Shittier block mechanics (we are teh block tanks. Riiiiight....). No snap aggro tool, especially in AoE situations (we will be built around Inquisition for AoE packs from what I read). Well, charge in, Crusader Strike once (at least for 1 HoPo), then Inquisition, then HotR. Great. And it's almost release time, so they won't make any major changes *sigh*.


Either that or dropping a consecration if there are too many. I'm guessing they want Inq + Imp Consecration to be our pseudo-snap aggro when more than 3-4 mobs. Although if that's the case, I can see CC being thrown out of the window...
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Re: Build 12924 (9/9/10)

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:36 pm

Glyph of Something Witty: Your Hammer of Justice no longer stuns, but interrupts spellcasting for 2 seconds and reduces it's cooldown by 30 seconds.

I can dream, right?
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Re: Build 12924 (9/9/10)

Postby Klaudandus » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:44 pm

I just want all the good topics that have been discussed here to translate into forum posts on the official forums. Interrupts, Vengeance Decay, HoPow generation and penalties between the 3 trees, snap-aggro, all good topics with solid arguments by several posters here on these forums...

I'd post there if I was in the beta...
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Re: Build 12924 (9/9/10)

Postby Ragingsoul » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:49 pm

Loras wrote:I feel the same tbh, with one slight difference - I like procs. That's all I've ever asked - to fit in a proc in the already existing paladin rotation. But the more I read, the more I find it clumsy and sad. No AoE Demo shout. No AoE attack speed debuff. No proper interrupt. No spammable ability to react to situations. Shittier block mechanics (we are teh block tanks. Riiiiight....). No snap aggro tool, especially in AoE situations (we will be built around Inquisition for AoE packs from what I read). Well, charge in, Crusader Strike once (at least for 1 HoPo), then Inquisition, then HotR. Great. And it's almost release time, so they won't make any major changes *sigh*.

yeah but you don't control procs. either it procs too much and it's like you always have it ( read art of war on live for retri) or it doesn't proc enough and doesn't feel fun. either way, relying on procs as tanks to pick up adds isn't a working mechanic, the same way for me, it's not fun if I can't pull a pack WITH holy shield active. the fact that you have to at least do 1 cs, then use a finisher like inquisition to get holy shield up is weird. It's like saying to prot warrior, they have to first do a devastate, then a shield slam to get shield block up.

I said it like 2 months ago, making avenger shield generates 1 holy power per target it hits a nice pull ability, as you can do inquisition as the mobs get to you, and have your holy shield up from the start of the fight, not 1/2 way through the trash. but that still doesn't solve all the other problems and the fact that I think whatever they do, I still don't like a combo point system for tanks, or how it's implemented for retri at the moment.
I don't get their goal about the healing thing too for example. As a dps, you will want to dps, if giving a heal isn't something you can do very often, then it's not something you will do when things go bad. Even worst, if you want to help heal rather than dpsing fine, but if you don't hit an enrage timer, why not take 1 more healer and 1 less dps?
if healers go oom, you put more healers. the only problem comes when healers are oom AND you hit an enrage timer. then again, trading so much dps for a little more healing isn't gonna change the outcome by a lot. So you pretty much end up with a loose loose mechanic for raids. granted, 5man and maybe 10men can differ.

Klaudandus wrote:I just want all the good topics that have been discussed here to translate into forum posts on the official forums. Interrupts, Vengeance Decay, HoPow generation and penalties between the 3 trees, snap-aggro, all good topics with solid arguments by several posters here on these forums...

I'd post there if I was in the beta...

beta forums are empty, with no reply, or less than normal forums if you look where they response.
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Re: Build 12924 (9/9/10)

Postby Marblehead » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:14 am

Grehn|Skipjack wrote:Glyph of Something Witty: Your Hammer of Justice no longer stuns, but interrupts spellcasting for 2 seconds and reduces it's cooldown by 30 seconds.

I can dream, right?

If you add in there the removal of its GCD, it becomes my dream too.
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Re: Build 12924 (9/9/10)

Postby Arianne » Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:55 am

Ragingsoul wrote:I don't get their goal about the healing thing too for example. As a dps, you will want to dps, if giving a heal isn't something you can do very often, then it's not something you will do when things go bad. Even worst, if you want to help heal rather than dpsing fine, but if you don't hit an enrage timer, why not take 1 more healer and 1 less dps?
if healers go oom, you put more healers. the only problem comes when healers are oom AND you hit an enrage timer. then again, trading so much dps for a little more healing isn't gonna change the outcome by a lot. So you pretty much end up with a loose loose mechanic for raids. granted, 5man and maybe 10men can differ.


Totally agree. They're building up all of this "utility" into Ret that is exactly what everyone hated about hybrids originally. You don't take the guy that's a halfwit at healing AND a halfwit at DPS, you take whichever one you need. That's what "offtanks" complain about all the time too. They're FORCED to be the halfwit tank and the halfwit DPS, which makes them feel useless for half the fight. We take 7 healers for Halion Heroic but we only need 3-4 for the first phase, so the other 3-4 are forced to DPS to 'help out'. I don't know anyone that actually enjoys doing that.
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Re: Build 12924 (9/9/10)

Postby Feanorion » Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:57 am

I don't think the developers STILL have no freaking idea what they want out of Prot Paladins, other than some bizarre fixation on forcing us to use CS and/or Holy Rogue Combo Points no matter how badly it screws over everything else in the class' abilities. The whole system looks to be unworkable, unfeasible, and a complete, unmitigated, unadulterated disaster. Making us build Holy Rogue Combo Points before we can block or use SotR effectively means that for the opening 14 or so seconds of every pull--- EVERY PULL--- we will be at a significant and potentially devastating disadvantage compared to every other tank.

We will take significantly more damage for the opening seconds of every single pull because we won't have Holy Rogue Combo Points built up.

We will do significantly less threat due to a lack of Holy Rogue combo points empowering out Ghetto Shield Slam.

God forbid we miss/have dodged/have parried with whatever ability builds our Holy Rogue Combo Points. That will extend the window of our disadvantage.

And what was the payoff? A more interactive and flexible rotation? NO!!! We are even more rigidly locked into a 1-button-macro rotation than we were before--- unless we count having missed/avoided Holy Rogue Combo Point applications making us waste more GCD's on a stupid Ret strike that we neither want nor would use if we were not forced to do so by the Holy Rogue Combo point abortive abomination of a concept.

It is interesting to note that this flopping failure of a system did not appear until people in the tanking forums mentioned not using CS because it was so ineffective, so at-odds with our rotation due to its (now changed) odd 4-second cd, and not being a Prot ability at all in any case. Was Holy Rogue combo Points already in the works, and that was mere coincidence? Entirely possible. But the haphazard, slipshod, no-thought-involved manner of its scattershot implementation leads me to believe that someone said,

"Hey, it looks like the players don't want to use the new rotation we're planning around. We need something to force them to use CS regardless. What about--- HEY!!! I like playing my Rogue! Let's give the paladins a combo point system! Then they'll get to play just like my Rogue! It'll be SOOOOOO much FUN!!!"

Cata looks to be a horrid failure from a Prot paladin viewpoint, even at this early, formative stage, because the developers seem hellbent for leather to make us into an amalgam of other classes, and to change us completely: to make us unrecognizable as a class and a playstyle.

EDIT: Almost forgot--- Avenger's Shield is, and should remain, our pull, not a part of a proccy-rotation. Use it in a rotation, and we have to sit and wait for the cd to expire before pulling the next pack. The "GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO WTF TANK!!! GO!!!" crowd will just love that, on top of having to wait ~14 seconds to open up with dps while we laboriously build Holy Rogue Combo points.
Last edited by Feanorion on Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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