Remove Advertisements

Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Invisusira's playground

Moderators: Aergis, Invisusira

Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:14 am

gtechman wrote:Yeah, don't get me wrong, I am totally against him burning the Koran because it is very disrespectful. I feel the same way as someone burning the Bible. This crack is obviously doing it for attention.

I just have seen folks argue that it is their right to build there even though it causes some hurt feelings. I have also seen Muslims that believe they shouldn't build there also because of hurtful relations it could cause...and possible violence. It just bothers me that some of those people won't use that arguement for pastor. If it applies to one group then it obviously applies to both.


It makes it easier if you apply some utilitarianism... What do they gain by building a mosque? A place to worship and a community center and etc. etc. What do the gain by burning a Koran? A bunch of ashes. The arguments about freedom of speech are fine and all, but the reason one gets labelled wrong and the other doesn't is because of the actual real world benefits of burning a book are negligible.
Image
Turn In, an NPC interaction automator - http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addo ... rn-in.aspx
User avatar
Sabindeus
Moderator
 
Posts: 10470
Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 9:24 am

Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Mcduffie » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:19 am

Fridmarr wrote:Well NPR was reporting that some German soldiers had to open fire at some protesters that were getting out of hand in Afghanistan over this issue. It didn't sound like anyone was seriously hurt, so I hope that holds true. There were some other larger and peaceful protests, but the sentiment seemed to be that the US government should stop him, which exasperates me somewhat. Of course we have people here that believe that too...

I thought the guy said that he wasn't going to do it though?


The full circle jerk is here: http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/10/florida.quran.burning.imam/index.html?hpt=T2
User avatar
Mcduffie
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:42 am

Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby gtechman » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:00 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
gtechman wrote:Yeah, don't get me wrong, I am totally against him burning the Koran because it is very disrespectful. I feel the same way as someone burning the Bible. This crack is obviously doing it for attention.

I just have seen folks argue that it is their right to build there even though it causes some hurt feelings. I have also seen Muslims that believe they shouldn't build there also because of hurtful relations it could cause...and possible violence. It just bothers me that some of those people won't use that arguement for pastor. If it applies to one group then it obviously applies to both.


It makes it easier if you apply some utilitarianism... What do they gain by building a mosque? A place to worship and a community center and etc. etc. What do the gain by burning a Koran? A bunch of ashes. The arguments about freedom of speech are fine and all, but the reason one gets labelled wrong and the other doesn't is because of the actual real world benefits of burning a book are negligible.


Then the folks getting up in arms about the Koran burning should feel the same towards Bible burning.
gtechman
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:29 pm

Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby cerwillis » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:11 pm

gtechman wrote:Then the folks getting up in arms about the Koran burning should feel the same towards Bible burning.

No one says it isn't a double standard. Christians don't declare jihad on an entire country in reaction to a burned bible, some muslims do in reaction to a burned koran. I think it important to get away from what is morally right and wrong in this situation and focus more on the reality of what would happen if he does this. If it was just hurt feelings involved, this guy would get a thumbs up, but it is much bigger than that, and really could have no positive outcome for anyone except him and his boys being able to pat themselves on the back and give the middle finger to Islam.

edit: I don't mean to imply that burning a bible would have any positive effect either. I just want us to get out of Afghanistan for the sake of our soldiers and our wallets, and this sort of tomfoolery really doesn't help. I hope he enjoys being on TV.
Mistawillis - Cerwillis - Turbowillis - Evilan
<Silent Resolve> Durotan/SW:TOR Shii-Cho
Miniwillis <PK> SC
User avatar
cerwillis
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:00 am

Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby gtechman » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:21 pm

cerwillis wrote:
gtechman wrote:Then the folks getting up in arms about the Koran burning should feel the same towards Bible burning.

No one says it isn't a double standard. Christians don't declare jihad on an entire country in reaction to a burned bible, some muslims do in reaction to a burned koran. I think it important to get away from what is morally right and wrong in this situation and focus more on the reality of what would happen if he does this. If it was just hurt feelings involved, this guy would get a thumbs up, but it is much bigger than that, and really could have no positive outcome for anyone except him and his boys being able to pat themselves on the back and give the middle finger to Islam.

edit: I don't mean to imply that burning a bible would have any positive effect either. I just want us to get out of Afghanistan for the sake of our soldiers and our wallets, and this sort of tomfoolery really doesn't help. I hope he enjoys being on TV.


Then wouldn't someone say that this is letting the terrorist win? So you aren't going to allow someone their freedom of speech because you fear it will make someone else mad and they may go out and murder innocent people? I totally understand this, but when you write it down and try to be objective about it, it tends to be pretty insane.

Trust me, our overseas military safety is the very first thing on my mind here. I work for the USAF. I disagree with this for many reasons. This is all just for the sake of arguement.
gtechman
 
Posts: 109
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:29 pm

Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby cerwillis » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:31 pm

You and I are in agreement then. I don't really support backing down to bully tactics, but in this case, its a cost/benefit thing and the benefit is nil.
Mistawillis - Cerwillis - Turbowillis - Evilan
<Silent Resolve> Durotan/SW:TOR Shii-Cho
Miniwillis <PK> SC
User avatar
cerwillis
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:00 am

Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Mcduffie » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:00 pm

cerwillis wrote:
gtechman wrote:Then the folks getting up in arms about the Koran burning should feel the same towards Bible burning.

No one says it isn't a double standard. Christians don't declare jihad on an entire country in reaction to a burned bible, some muslims do in reaction to a burned koran. quote]

Wiki the word Jihad. It doesn't necessarily mean "holy war." Just a "striving" or a "struggle" against something. So if a muslim were to be working against child abuse in a community, he could say he was on jihad against child abuse. Though, most Americans would immediately assume he was contemplating buying an AK-47 to kill child abusers. Which may be false.

Christians have declared their own intentions of a "jihad" on Afghanistan in retaliation for attacks on September 11th. I imagine a lot of Christians have done it for the situation with the mosque in New York. Some Christians have even made terrorist attacks agains the US itself, in retaliation for government decisions. See below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutaree

People are people. They rage against what upsets them. We're no better than Muslims or Afghanis in that respect. We shouldn't consider ourselves such.
User avatar
Mcduffie
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:42 am

Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:04 pm

gtechman wrote:
cerwillis wrote:
gtechman wrote:Then the folks getting up in arms about the Koran burning should feel the same towards Bible burning.

No one says it isn't a double standard. Christians don't declare jihad on an entire country in reaction to a burned bible, some muslims do in reaction to a burned koran. I think it important to get away from what is morally right and wrong in this situation and focus more on the reality of what would happen if he does this. If it was just hurt feelings involved, this guy would get a thumbs up, but it is much bigger than that, and really could have no positive outcome for anyone except him and his boys being able to pat themselves on the back and give the middle finger to Islam.

edit: I don't mean to imply that burning a bible would have any positive effect either. I just want us to get out of Afghanistan for the sake of our soldiers and our wallets, and this sort of tomfoolery really doesn't help. I hope he enjoys being on TV.


Then wouldn't someone say that this is letting the terrorist win? So you aren't going to allow someone their freedom of speech because you fear it will make someone else mad and they may go out and murder innocent people? I totally understand this, but when you write it down and try to be objective about it, it tends to be pretty insane.

Trust me, our overseas military safety is the very first thing on my mind here. I work for the USAF. I disagree with this for many reasons. This is all just for the sake of arguement.

Just one nitpick. It's not a matter of "allowing" freedom of speech. Only in rare cases is that to be constrained, and the qualifications for which are demanding. This clearly does not meet that standard.

It's not a rational reaction to commit acts of violence as a response to a book burning, and I wouldn't hold this guy responsible for those acts if they were to happen. You commit a violent act because someone burned a book, you are responsible for it 100%. However, it's not like he's doing something that is otherwise right in spite of the consequences, he's doing something stupid, and with no benefit in spite of the consequences. So the natural reaction is to try to convince him to stop, but ultimately that's his choice.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9665
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby cerwillis » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:24 pm

I am hopeful that this guy will learn something on his trip to NY, and at the very least, cancel this event on the grounds that his religion is not a hateful one. I would also hope that the rest of the world is getting the message that the (edit: overwhelming) majority of Americans are against the idea, and that our government is practically begging him to cancel it. There is some potential for good to come of this.
Last edited by cerwillis on Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mistawillis - Cerwillis - Turbowillis - Evilan
<Silent Resolve> Durotan/SW:TOR Shii-Cho
Miniwillis <PK> SC
User avatar
cerwillis
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:00 am

Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Dorvan » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:24 pm

Mcduffie wrote:Christians have declared their own intentions of a "jihad" on Afghanistan in retaliation for attacks on September 11th. I imagine a lot of Christians have done it for the situation with the mosque in New York. Some Christians have even made terrorist attacks agains the US itself, in retaliation for government decisions. See below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutaree

People are people. They rage against what upsets them. We're no better than Muslims or Afghanis in that respect. We shouldn't consider ourselves such.


Are you really drawing a moral equivalence between a military response against the perpetrators of a terrorist attack that kills 5,000 people and a violent response to a book burning?
Image

WHAT WOULD BEST DESCRIBE YOUR PERSONALITY?
Moonlight Sonata Techno Remix
Scriggle - 85 Fire Mage
Fizzmore - 81 Mut Rogue
Adorania - 80 Disc Priest
User avatar
Dorvan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8462
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:28 pm

Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Koatanga » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:48 pm

Christians have bombed abortion clinics, killed politicians, and even perpetuated the Crusades and the Holocaust. Don't for a moment believe the Christian faith is any more immune to extremists than any other.

Most KKK members would consider themselves Christian, but are they examples of Christianity as a whole? They may not be representative of your beliefs, but they still fall under the umbrella of "Christian" whether you like it or not.

There are also Mulsim extremists, who believe and behave contrary to the way the vast majority of Muslims would behave. You can bet there are some pretty pissed of Muslims who don't approve of the actions of the extremists, and certainly have issues with how those actions represent their religion.

Painting all Muslims with the same brush on the basis of actions of extremists is exactly the same as someone blaming all Christians for the actions of the KKK.
Retired. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry, Doominatrix of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1972
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Dorvan » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:55 pm

If that's directed at me, you're responding to an argument that I'm not making. Mcduffie's post was drawing a specific moral equivalence that I find to be completely off the wall, and I wanted to clarify that.
Image

WHAT WOULD BEST DESCRIBE YOUR PERSONALITY?
Moonlight Sonata Techno Remix
Scriggle - 85 Fire Mage
Fizzmore - 81 Mut Rogue
Adorania - 80 Disc Priest
User avatar
Dorvan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8462
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:28 pm

Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Mcduffie » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:55 pm

Dorvan wrote:If that's directed at me, you're responding to an argument that I'm not making. Mcduffie's post was drawing a specific moral equivalence that I find to be completely off the wall, and I wanted to clarify that.


Hmm, the quote in my post removed Cerwillis' part. What I was saying is that members of the US have and will declare Jihad on an entire country for the actions of one person. I can't think of the number of times I heard "we should've turned the whole country into a glass parking lot."

The inequality of a terrorist attack killing 5,000, and a book burning speaks for itself.
User avatar
Mcduffie
 
Posts: 454
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:42 am

Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby masterpoobaa » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:24 pm

Just remember folks:

"If you aren't with us then you support the terrorists!"

This information was brought to you thanks to the George Bush fanclub.
Ellifain @ Khaz'Goroth does not approve of torture, save where there's experience/rep/loot involved.
masterpoobaa
 
Posts: 2230
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:14 pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia, Earth, Sol, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe.

Previous

Return to Arkham Asylum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest