Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby dmok » Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:21 am

Personally, I am hopeful for a single-tier attunment that disappears after the new tier has been out for a couple months. Using WotLK as an example:

3.0: complete heroic Cos/AN/whatever to get your "Naxx" key. 3 months after launch, key is no longer required to get into Naxx

3.1: kill KT to get your "Ulduar" key (retroactive). 2 months after launch, key is no longer required to get into Ulduar

3.2: kill YS to get your "ToC" key (retroactive). 2 months after launch, key is no longer required to get into ToC

3.3: kill Anub'arak to get your "ICC" key (retroactive). 2 months after launch, key is no longer required to get into ICC




This promoted people actually trying to clear previous tiers even after new content and new gear comes out and starts being available. In my guild, we were never quite able to push to YS to kill him because ToC came out right as we neared the end (yeah, we had "forever" up to that point, but raiding 1 night a week makes it hard before reset extensions to do it). If we needed to clear to start on ToC before the masses, it would have been the big push we needed to get through it. Open it up later to that everyone still gets to see everything (me included!) while still giving the incentive to work through the old stuff at some point.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Digren » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:39 am

dmok wrote:Personally, I am hopeful for a single-tier attunment that disappears after the new tier has been out for a couple months. Using WotLK as an example:

3.0: complete heroic Cos/AN/whatever to get your "Naxx" key. 3 months after launch, key is no longer required to get into Naxx

3.1: kill KT to get your "Ulduar" key (retroactive). 2 months after launch, key is no longer required to get into Ulduar

3.2: kill YS to get your "ToC" key (retroactive). 2 months after launch, key is no longer required to get into ToC

3.3: kill Anub'arak to get your "ICC" key (retroactive). 2 months after launch, key is no longer required to get into ICC




This promoted people actually trying to clear previous tiers even after new content and new gear comes out and starts being available. In my guild, we were never quite able to push to YS to kill him because ToC came out right as we neared the end (yeah, we had "forever" up to that point, but raiding 1 night a week makes it hard before reset extensions to do it). If we needed to clear to start on ToC before the masses, it would have been the big push we needed to get through it. Open it up later to that everyone still gets to see everything (me included!) while still giving the incentive to work through the old stuff at some point.

We had the same problem you did in Ulduar, where we couldn't get to YS in our limited raiding time, and didn't down him before ToC came out. But I think your proposed solution would have the opposite effect. Rather than be the "big push" to get your raiders to finish YS, I think being forced into an extended instance with nothing but YS up, and with no other content to pursue, would more often than not lead to disintegration of the raiding group.

Why bother running it with your guild or raid alliance when other guilds - those with more raid time or harder core players - could just as easily take one night a week to sell keying runs to all your members? Your harder-core members will be dissatisfied with an inability to use the new content on release, and may be drawn to leave. Your softer-core members will be frustrated with nothing but YS to throw themselves on for the entire week after week, and likewise could be tempted to purchase the easily solution of a carry run.

Obviously part of this problem is due to the serial length of Ulduar, but I don't want Blizzard to forgoe deep raids to accommodate us short-time raiders. Rather, I think their existing choices are best compromise.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby dmok » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:21 pm

Digren wrote:We had the same problem you did in Ulduar, where we couldn't get to YS in our limited raiding time, and didn't down him before ToC came out. But I think your proposed solution would have the opposite effect. Rather than be the "big push" to get your raiders to finish YS, I think being forced into an extended instance with nothing but YS up, and with no other content to pursue, would more often than not lead to disintegration of the raiding group.

Why bother running it with your guild or raid alliance when other guilds - those with more raid time or harder core players - could just as easily take one night a week to sell keying runs to all your members? Your harder-core members will be dissatisfied with an inability to use the new content on release, and may be drawn to leave. Your softer-core members will be frustrated with nothing but YS to throw themselves on for the entire week after week, and likewise could be tempted to purchase the easily solution of a carry run.

Obviously part of this problem is due to the serial length of Ulduar, but I don't want Blizzard to forgoe deep raids to accommodate us short-time raiders. Rather, I think their existing choices are best compromise.

I didn't think about the selling key runs ... mainly because my ass-backwards server only really has like a handful of guilds clear content in something approaching slow (we still have 0 heroic LK kills on 25man OR 10man).

Our guild HAS managed to clear ICC10 on normal so far, thanks in large part to lockout extensions (go go 1.5 months of nothing but LK attempts!), so I guess this is less of a problem now ... but I was just trying to think of some way to give people an incentive to push for that last boss. Especially since patches are released in a "the patch is coming out soon, maybe we should start pushing for the end of ... oh. it's patch day today"

Extending raid lockouts was something that went a huuuge way to helping "more casual" guilds like ours actually progress (we're actually a fairly large guild. we just have a big skill drop-off due to our guild structure). We have lives, we don't have lots of time to pour into this game, but we still feel like we're fairly good at it. Letting us extend our raids weekly may slow our badge/loot income, but at least we can get to and see the content for which we believe we are capeable of
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:48 pm

There are times I do wish I could bring myself to abandon all my characters and my friends on our ass-backward server and go somewhere that actually offers some opportunities, dmok.

My guild also spent months on extended lockout to reach Yogg, and didn't get him until a few weeks after ToC was released (mainly because our GM made a big deal out of it). And of course outside of guild runs you'll pretty much never see any content of significance.

To be honest I don't mind the system myself, it's more the server environment that makes it this way. Trying to force people to complete the final boss of a raid wouldn't send things back to the TBC days, but it would significantly impact on the number of people seriously raiding if they can't access the latest tier each patch, and I'd say that'd make things on small servers like ours worse.

All in all I think the lack of attunements is a positive thing in a lot of ways. Tuning raids a little tighter as far as required gear/performance goes wouldn't be a bad thing, though.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Digren » Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:45 pm

dmok wrote:Our guild HAS managed to clear ICC10 on normal so far, thanks in large part to lockout extensions (go go 1.5 months of nothing but LK attempts!), so I guess this is less of a problem now ...

We have just, in the past two weeks, started extending. Unfortunately I've been out a while as my wife is in the hospital, so I haven't been there for any attempts yet.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby hoho » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:39 pm

Klaudandus wrote:After all, the one thing guilds one is to have their tanks and healers geared up as possible in order to start talking more content.

A bit oldish but from Ulduar and up my guilds have actually seen far more DPS roadblocks than tank/healer problems. Though that was quite likely because of broken WotLK tank/healing mechanics so things could change in cata. I just hope we won't end up having our tanks and healers geared to the teeth and dragging the rest through anything in random stuff that has been left over
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Passionario » Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:50 am

Loras wrote:No, no, I'm not saying we're right, they're wrong. Just that there will be drama :)

If the game could survive the amalagmation of spell/melee hit/crit/haste and damage/healing/spellpower, it can certainly survive the introduction of mastery.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby lythac » Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:57 am

Passionario wrote:
Loras wrote:No, no, I'm not saying we're right, they're wrong. Just that there will be drama :)

If the game could survive the amalagmation of spell/melee hit/crit/haste and damage/healing/spellpower, it can certainly survive the introduction of mastery.


Twilight Dragonscale Cloak OMG THERE IS A CLOAK WITH SPELL HIT AND DODGE!!
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:39 am

lythac wrote:
Passionario wrote:
Loras wrote:No, no, I'm not saying we're right, they're wrong. Just that there will be drama :)

If the game could survive the amalagmation of spell/melee hit/crit/haste and damage/healing/spellpower, it can certainly survive the introduction of mastery.


Twilight Dragonscale Cloak OMG THERE IS A CLOAK WITH SPELL HIT AND DODGE!!


That actually scares me....
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby lythac » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:50 am

Klaudandus wrote:
lythac wrote:
Passionario wrote:If the game could survive the amalagmation of spell/melee hit/crit/haste and damage/healing/spellpower, it can certainly survive the introduction of mastery.


Twilight Dragonscale Cloak OMG THERE IS A CLOAK WITH SPELL HIT AND DODGE!!


That actually scares me....


Its just how MMO Champion is grabbing the info. There are 3 tanking cloaks that it lists will spell hit (which don't appear on wowhead) and 1 that has hit (which does appear on wowhead).
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:51 am

But I thought they wanted homogenize stats amongst tanks, then why add Spell Hit to some tank items?
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Zalaria » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:55 am

Klaudandus wrote:But I thought they wanted homogenize stats amongst tanks, then why add Spell Hit to some tank items?


I guarantee that it is not actually spell hit. Remember almost all of these things are datamined, and may or may not be correct in any way.

Plus, it's still beta. Even if they really are spell hit, they'll get changed.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:18 am

Klaudandus wrote:But I thought they wanted homogenize stats amongst tanks, then why add Spell Hit to some tank items?


Come on, there is no such thing as spell hit anymore. :P
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:21 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:But I thought they wanted homogenize stats amongst tanks, then why add Spell Hit to some tank items?


Come on, there is no such thing as spell hit anymore. :P


I have a hangover and a nasty headache -_-
Macallan will do that to you if you don't drink it in moderation, it will also deplete your wallet...

Also, I just remembered, I ran out of skittles vodka and vodka gummi bears.
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Re: Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby theckhd » Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:42 am

Sabindeus wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:But I thought they wanted homogenize stats amongst tanks, then why add Spell Hit to some tank items?


Come on, there is no such thing as spell hit anymore. :P


It's OK, Klaud was too busy dodging the falling pieces of sky to think clearly about the topic. :P
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