Question on Armor Type Specialization

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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby ulushnar » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:18 am

Mcduffie wrote:
Archeth wrote:You know what could homogenize the gear up process of classes too? Stripping every class from all but their highest armor class. Bam, "problem" solved, no need for fancy new rules. However, I'm writing "problem" because in every decent guild agility gear goes to agility classes and cloth goes to squishies first if they view gearing up their roster as a guild thing vs. individuals trying to get their own BiS set together. The only reason I can run around looking like half a shaman is because our elemental shaman got his mail stuff first. The only way I'd ever get cloth boots (ICC) or bracers (RS) is if our squishies who need them first already have them.

Hence I'm not sure there was really a problem to solve. Just like the "oh no you can't need on certain items in random dungeons anymore" rules.


This.

My idea's dumb.

I'm tired of re-inventing the wheel, when the only faulty element is the human one.


Nah, there's no problem really with people using other people's gear if they can't get anything better, it's using other people's gear because it's flat out better than what you can get.

I find your ideas interesting however, and humbly suggest you never go into business:

"How do we make people buy our products?"
"Let's break the legs of anyone who doesn't!"
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby Mcduffie » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:26 am

ulushnar wrote:
Mcduffie wrote:
Archeth wrote:You know what could homogenize the gear up process of classes too? Stripping every class from all but their highest armor class. Bam, "problem" solved, no need for fancy new rules. However, I'm writing "problem" because in every decent guild agility gear goes to agility classes and cloth goes to squishies first if they view gearing up their roster as a guild thing vs. individuals trying to get their own BiS set together. The only reason I can run around looking like half a shaman is because our elemental shaman got his mail stuff first. The only way I'd ever get cloth boots (ICC) or bracers (RS) is if our squishies who need them first already have them.

Hence I'm not sure there was really a problem to solve. Just like the "oh no you can't need on certain items in random dungeons anymore" rules.


This.

My idea's dumb.

I'm tired of re-inventing the wheel, when the only faulty element is the human one.


Nah, there's no problem really with people using other people's gear if they can't get anything better, it's using other people's gear because it's flat out better than what you can get.

I find your ideas interesting however, and humbly suggest you never go into business:

"How do we make people buy our products?"
"Let's break the legs of anyone who doesn't!"


Yeah, I used to sell carpet.

Now I sell wheel chairs, and I'm making a KILLING!

But I don't think that business plan was mine. That's Dimless you're thinking of. I provided a possible solution, and then abruptly hated it.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby ulushnar » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:52 am

Mcduffie wrote:Yeah, I used to sell carpet.

Now I sell wheel chairs, and I'm making a KILLING!

But I don't think that business plan was mine. That's Dimless you're thinking of. I provided a possible solution, and then abruptly hated it.



Yeah, yours was more "let's utterly remove their ability to use someone else's product". Personally, I prefer the system that encourages people to make the right choice over the one that eliminates the option of making a wrong choice.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby ulushnar » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:55 am

ulushnar wrote: Personally, I prefer the system that encourages people to make the right choice over the one that eliminates the option of making a wrong choice.


Actually, change "right" and "wrong" to "desirable" and "undesirable" respectively. It wasn't wrong under the rules for Boomkins to favour Cloth in several slots, but it was undesirable to Blizzard's stated goal.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby Mcduffie » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:29 pm

Yeah, I agree with you entirely. The worst I've seen of the current system is nerd rage. Which is a good indicator of undesirables in a guild. I just can't make myself get that upset over a piece of gear that doesn't really exist irl.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby Noradin » Wed Sep 08, 2010 11:21 am

The only real problem I ever saw with holy paladins wearing mail was the stupid look. Other than that I belive they should have either made them use mail (and even give them the bonus for it) while adjusting the drop chance and survival talents or made them scale off of strength (which would be kind of weird and create some new problems) a long time ago.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby Archeth » Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:24 pm

I really don't understand why they just haven't made holy paladins wear caster mail, tier gear could still have a unique "paladin-y" look, and other slots aren't all that visible anyway. Besides, that "iconic" paladin plate look has been lost whenever they made us wear dresses anyway, so I don't see what the big deal is. And functionally it doesn't matter anyway (and if it was they could still add a talent or now, spec passive skill to add armor from mail).

The only reason Archeth looks weird in all that mail is because she's also wearing cloth pants now. :oops:
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby ulushnar » Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:13 am

Archeth wrote:I really don't understand why they just haven't made holy paladins wear caster mail, tier gear could still have a unique "paladin-y" look, and other slots aren't all that visible anyway. Besides, that "iconic" paladin plate look has been lost whenever they made us wear dresses anyway, so I don't see what the big deal is. And functionally it doesn't matter anyway (and if it was they could still add a talent or now, spec passive skill to add armor from mail).

The only reason Archeth looks weird in all that mail is because she's also wearing cloth pants now. :oops:


It doesn't matter (much) in PVE, but I'm sure PVP Holydins would cry foul over the drop in Armor. Besides, deciding one spec gets an armor downgrade isn't solving the problem, just ignoring it.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby Noradin » Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:27 am

ulushnar wrote:
Archeth wrote:I really don't understand why they just haven't made holy paladins wear caster mail, tier gear could still have a unique "paladin-y" look, and other slots aren't all that visible anyway. Besides, that "iconic" paladin plate look has been lost whenever they made us wear dresses anyway, so I don't see what the big deal is. And functionally it doesn't matter anyway (and if it was they could still add a talent or now, spec passive skill to add armor from mail).

The only reason Archeth looks weird in all that mail is because she's also wearing cloth pants now. :oops:


It doesn't matter (much) in PVE, but I'm sure PVP Holydins would cry foul over the drop in Armor. Besides, deciding one spec gets an armor downgrade isn't solving the problem, just ignoring it.


It is.
Look at the "survival talent" part I included, when I started that part of the discussion.
Other healers are abele to survive in PvP, too. Thats because they have abilities (which might be given by talents) to balance for their armor type - or the other way around: paladin healers lack certain abilities they would otherwise have due to their higher armor type.
You could even make it an additional primary skill for them to get an procentual armor increase from mail to that of plate (both depend linear on itemlevel (+ bonus armor which can be addressed seperatly, as other abilities demonstrate) so it is possible).
It would solve the "only caster class wearing mail" problem of shamans and lessen the "too much healing as ret in holy gear" as well.

Edit: It (probably) wouldn't even be much of a problem to just implement this overnight, since you could just give holy paladins the additional primary stat and change all caster plate to mail (just the amor type flag). Done. Nothing changes but a flag for holy and nobody else should use those items anyways.
They did state, after all, that all healing classes would be using the same stats.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby ulushnar » Thu Sep 09, 2010 2:46 am

It's an easy, obvious straightforward attempt at a solution, you're also not the first to suggest it on these boards iirc. I'm assuming Blizzard have therefore at least looked at it and decided it wasn't what they wanted for whatever reason. Fair enough, their game, their rules.

I'm not in love the current Holy itemization either. It seems to fly in the face of Blizzard's intended goals that there's drops that can only be used by one spec in 30. I don't see a good solution tbh.

I did kinda like the idea of healing in melee plate, but the big issue there comes from mana management: Blizz have stated over and over that they want to make mana efficiency matter in Cataclysm, but how do you make an essentially unbuffed mana pool efficient without making it essentially meaningless? (as JotW does right now for Melee Paladins) It's also a very niche mechanic, which Blizz seem to be trying to move away from.

The mail idea, well it makes kinda more sense, but I can't get over the idea that it feels like Holydins are being punished: wanna heal? Ok, lose the ability to wear the best armor normally available to your class. Intellectually it may end up being better, but psychologically it feels like you're giving something up. Remember, this is a change you have to sell to people of all levels of play & understanding.

From what I've seen, Blizz would rather give something than take it away. And if they're taking something away, especially something that's been in place for over six years, they'd generally prefer to give something else in it's place.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby Noradin » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:15 am

But wouldn't they give more than they take if holy gets the same armor from mail as from plate and is exspected to use that instead? It triples their drop chance for usable loot decreasing the variance and annoyance for the raid group singificantly.

How could anywone interpret "You can now use mail with the amor benefit of plate but the tooltip of all spell plate is changed to mail" as taking something away? Unless they count on no competition but that's just shortsighted and should be solved by reducing the drop chance.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby ulushnar » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:11 am

Noradin wrote:How could anywone interpret "You can now use mail with the amor benefit of plate but the tooltip of all spell plate is changed to mail" as taking something away?


I dunno, but the more I think about it, the more saying "we can't really make Spellpower plate work for you, so just wear mail and we'll code it so it works as plate" looks like a slippery slope. Once you start doing that, whats's the justification to stop there? Surely gear that can be used by 5 specs is better than 3, so let's make shamans and paladins wear leather! Oh hell, why not let all 14 spellpower specs use the same gear and just have them all wear cloth!

I can't articulate is as well as a games designer might, but there's just something inherantly dodgy about it...
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby Noradin » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:39 am

ulushnar wrote:
Noradin wrote:How could anywone interpret "You can now use mail with the amor benefit of plate but the tooltip of all spell plate is changed to mail" as taking something away?


I dunno, but the more I think about it, the more saying "we can't really make Spellpower plate work for you, so just wear mail and we'll code it so it works as plate" looks like a slippery slope. Once you start doing that, whats's the justification to stop there? Surely gear that can be used by 5 specs is better than 3, so let's make shamans and paladins wear leather! Oh hell, why not let all 14 spellpower specs use the same gear and just have them all wear cloth!

I can't articulate is as well as a games designer might, but there's just something inherantly dodgy about it...


While that is a valid concern I don't think it will happen anytime soon.
After all the implemented the amor increase in moonkin form with spell cloth in mind and later added spell leather.
And lets not forget that every plate using class starts out with mail and hunters start out with leather.
They still keep groups of classes for tier tokens, too.

I don't think they will ever go from small groups of specs using the same amor to all.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby sherck » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:46 am

Candiru wrote:Yes, but they also changed leather armour itemisation so that Str classes wouldn't want it anymore I think. I can't remember the details though.


They have taken all the Attack Power off items for Cata. All AP will be derived from either Strength for Str using classes or Agility for Agi using classes.

Thus, if a Str user equips a mail piece, they will get zero Attack Power from the piece and that will probably be enough to preclude them from using it.

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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby ulushnar » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:58 am

Noradin wrote:While that is a valid concern I don't think it will happen anytime soon.


Neither do I, but it's a slippery slope. Once you apply that solution to the "problem" of Holydins, then which type of Armor has the least amount of specs using it? Caster leather. And what logically prevents you from applying a similar solution there?

Noradin wrote:After all the implemented the amor increase in moonkin form with spell cloth in mind and later added spell leather.


Where's that stated btw? I certainly remember there being damage/healing leather back in Classic on my Druid. I always took the armor bonus as being a survivability thing, given we couldn't cast heals in Moonkin form and we didn't have the decent agility of kitties for dodge.
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