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Question on Armor Type Specialization

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Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby sherck » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:57 am

Is the 5% bonus an "all or nothing" type of bonus for being in the "correct" type of armor? Or does is scale as a function of ??/8 pieces since only 8 of your gear slots have an armor type (Head, Shoulders, Chest, Wrists, Hands, Waist, Legs, Feet).

I ask because it seems crazy to me that Blizzard is implemintation armor specialization this way. I mean, honestly, out of 30 specs, only 9 even have the option of wearing armor of lower armor classes and still get stats they care about. 21 specs honestly CANNOT downgrade armor because none would have stats of their liking.

All Cloth wearers cannot downgrade = 9 specs
Rogues (no Agi on cloth gear) = 3 specs
Feral Druids (no Agi on cloth gear) = 2 specs
All Warriors, All DKs, Prot Pallies, Ret Pallies (no Str on non-plate)= 8 specs

The only specs that have to worry about lesser armor type gear are healers (3 specs), Balances Druids (1 spec), all Shaman (3 specs) and all Hunters (3 specs).

Are they really just giving out 5% extra primary stat to 21 specs? Are they balancing the other specs to assume that they "have" to be armor specialized in order to compete? Will Priest healers become "the" picked healer because of 5% bonus in Intellect baked in?

Just wondering...I just do not get what this implementation is suppose to solve.

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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby dmok » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:05 am

It's my understanding that fury warriors used to love to downgrade to leather armour since it was far better itemized in some slots for them (less hit, more arpen). the loss of ap from str would be made up in part from the raw ap on the leather gear, and the gain in crit from the agility.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby Candiru » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:17 am

Yes, but they also changed leather armour itemisation so that Str classes wouldn't want it anymore I think. I can't remember the details though.

The real reason for this change is holy paladins, every other healer has to compete slightly with a spellcaster for gear, and they get upset when they see Holy Paladins not only getting all the healing plate uncontested, but also picking up random cloth/leather/mail items no-one else wants. The end result is that holy paladins gear up very quickly, hell even prot paladins end up with pretty good healing off-sets just from the fact they can use anything.

This 5% boost will let other players feel better about themselves when holy paladins cannot use the un-wanted gear anymore.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby ulushnar » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:49 am

It has to be all eight pieces to make Armor Spec work as far as I know.

And all it does is prevent you from taking a marginal upgrade in a weaker armor type. To use current gear levels as a comparison, then it should cause a Holydin in full ilevel 232+ gear to think twice about an ilevel 251 cloth item. If the same Holydin is maybe in ilevel 200ish gear, then maybe the upgrade's worth the 5% Int drop.

What it really does is prevent a situation where, for example, the Boomkin* BiS list ends up being almost exclusively cloth. That kind of situation sucks for both sides, since either you let your Boomkins roll on the gear that gives them the best DPS to the detriment of your Mages, Locks and Priests, or you make them wait until the clothies have theirs and force them to make do with inferior gear. Now, unless you're crossing multiple tiers, "your" armor will almost always be better for you than any inferior class.

*I'm using Boomkins as an example here only. I don't know if their theoretical BiS list even has any cloth in it!
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby Archeth » Tue Sep 07, 2010 7:56 am

Candiru wrote:Yes, but they also changed leather armour itemisation so that Str classes wouldn't want it anymore I think. I can't remember the details though.

The real reason for this change is holy paladins, every other healer has to compete slightly with a spellcaster for gear, and they get upset when they see Holy Paladins not only getting all the healing plate uncontested, but also picking up random cloth/leather/mail items no-one else wants. The end result is that holy paladins gear up very quickly, hell even prot paladins end up with pretty good healing off-sets just from the fact they can use anything.

This 5% boost will let other players feel better about themselves when holy paladins cannot use the un-wanted gear anymore.

They can still use the gear. Also, you conveniently forget caster shamans and -druids, all cause more or less rage when they take cloth instead of the badly itemized items of their "optimal" armor class Blizzard has been throwing them for a full expansion (hello mp5 caster mail, eg.). It's a bit of a stretch to claim holy paladins are the reason for this system.

Although "omg he's taking my gears" raging is an incredibly stupid for a system like this (everyone but a select few healer/caster specs and possibly enhance shamans/hunters gets a free 5% to their main stat for wearing what they would wear anyway) in the first place. There was nothing wrong with classes finding viable upgrades (now, pretty much impossible to be viable within reasonable item level deltas) in lower armor classes, it was Blizzard insisting on making terrible items for eg. holy paladins, elemental shamans and boomkins that drove people to consider cloth and whatnot instead of "their own" items. But they obviously didn't want to fix stupidity/malice of their item designers.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:38 am

No, what Ulu said is right, it wasn't just itemization at work. Healers/casters of higher armor types were taking upgrades from lower armor types simply because it was an upgrade, not because their stuff was itemized poorly. This change makes that decision much harder.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby katraya » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:05 am

When will we start seeing this kick in?

While I think this will not be a huge issues at max level, which many people would say is the only place that matters, this will stink for leveling. Right now my druid is mainly wearing cloth because most leather quest rewards and a fair number of the dungeon drops are designed for melee.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:12 am

katraya wrote:When will we start seeing this kick in?

While I think this will not be a huge issues at max level, which many people would say is the only place that matters, this will stink for leveling. Right now my druid is mainly wearing cloth because most leather quest rewards and a fair number of the dungeon drops are designed for melee.


I believe it is trained at 80?
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby Minarva » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:20 am

Indeed, this is trainable at level 80 on beta so far.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby ulushnar » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:50 am

Archeth wrote:Although "omg he's taking my gears" raging is an incredibly stupid for a system like this (everyone but a select few healer/caster specs and possibly enhance shamans/hunters gets a free 5% to their main stat for wearing what they would wear anyway) in the first place.


It depends how you define "a select few" in this case. At the moment, a piece of cloth with +Int, Spirit, Crit and Haste is valuable to nine out of the 30 possible specs. Without Armor specialization, that number goes up to fourteen (two druid, two shaman, one paladin). That's nearly half the possible specs laying equal claim to the same piece of gear. Every tier.

With Armor spec, it encourages the specs with more armor options to think twice, and only take a cloth upgrade if it's two or more tiers above whatever they currently have in that slot.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby Dimless » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:20 am

If I remember correctly the boomkin BIS list has 4 or 5 pieces of cloth gear on it. I believe Blizzard approached this the wrong way. Instead of making a 5% bonus why not create a rez sickness like effect for gear. Meaning that if you equip a piece of mail as a warrior at the max level cap you'll receive a 85% reduction to the stats on that piece. To me this is a far better deterrent than a 5% bonus. But I think the question becomes, why do we have to implement this system in the first place? In early Wrath a fury warrior would wear quite a bit of leather. Pallies can wear cloth to heal, Shamans and Druids could use cloth in 2/3 of their specs. This move is being made to take away that advantage druids, shamans, and pallies had when gearing up. Its the same between DPS cloth and healy cloth too. I know in my guild when a healer rolls on DPS cloth the clothy DPS is up in arms, and when a DPS caster rolls on healy cloth the healers give it right back. Let's face it clothies take heat from all sides and they can't grab a piece of plate because it works better and fills a weak piece of gear with a strong one. This to me was homogenizing the gearing process for all classes. I just feel it was done the wrong way. There should have been a steep penalty for wearing the wrong armor type. Not a reward for wearing the right armor type.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby Mcduffie » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:34 am

Dimless wrote:If I remember correctly the boomkin BIS list has 4 or 5 pieces of cloth gear on it. I believe Blizzard approached this the wrong way. Instead of making a 5% bonus why not create a rez sickness like effect for gear. Meaning that if you equip a piece of mail as a warrior at the max level cap you'll receive a 85% reduction to the stats on that piece. To me this is a far better deterrent than a 5% bonus. But I think the question becomes, why do we have to implement this system in the first place? In early Wrath a fury warrior would wear quite a bit of leather. Pallies can wear cloth to heal, Shamans and Druids could use cloth in 2/3 of their specs. This move is being made to take away that advantage druids, shamans, and pallies had when gearing up. Its the same between DPS cloth and healy cloth too. I know in my guild when a healer rolls on DPS cloth the clothy DPS is up in arms, and when a DPS caster rolls on healy cloth the healers give it right back. Let's face it clothies take heat from all sides and they can't grab a piece of plate because it works better and fills a weak piece of gear with a strong one. This to me was homogenizing the gearing process for all classes. I just feel it was done the wrong way. There should have been a steep penalty for wearing the wrong armor type. Not a reward for wearing the right armor type.


It simply approaches too closely to my willing suspension of disbelief for a really strong warrior to suffer an 85% decrease in stats for wearing mail.

Though, maybe there's a compromise to be met here. What if each talent tree had a specific armor type that was activated once you spent the majority of your talent points in it? That way, holydins would wear cloth, and so on and so forth.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby ulushnar » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:38 am

Dimless wrote:If I remember correctly the boomkin BIS list has 4 or 5 pieces of cloth gear on it. I believe Blizzard approached this the wrong way. Instead of making a 5% bonus why not create a rez sickness like effect for gear. Meaning that if you equip a piece of mail as a warrior at the max level cap you'll receive a 85% reduction to the stats on that piece.


You're thinking about this the wrong way. Blizz are looking at ways to make the "right" gear a better choice, not to punish you for wearing the "wrong" gear.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby Archeth » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:43 am

You know what could homogenize the gear up process of classes too? Stripping every class from all but their highest armor class. Bam, "problem" solved, no need for fancy new rules. However, I'm writing "problem" because in every decent guild agility gear goes to agility classes and cloth goes to squishies first if they view gearing up their roster as a guild thing vs. individuals trying to get their own BiS set together. The only reason I can run around looking like half a shaman is because our elemental shaman got his mail stuff first. The only way I'd ever get cloth boots (ICC) or bracers (RS) is if our squishies who need them first already have them.

Hence I'm not sure there was really a problem to solve. Just like the "oh no you can't need on certain items in random dungeons anymore" rules.
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Re: Question on Armor Type Specialization

Postby Mcduffie » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:51 am

Archeth wrote:You know what could homogenize the gear up process of classes too? Stripping every class from all but their highest armor class. Bam, "problem" solved, no need for fancy new rules. However, I'm writing "problem" because in every decent guild agility gear goes to agility classes and cloth goes to squishies first if they view gearing up their roster as a guild thing vs. individuals trying to get their own BiS set together. The only reason I can run around looking like half a shaman is because our elemental shaman got his mail stuff first. The only way I'd ever get cloth boots (ICC) or bracers (RS) is if our squishies who need them first already have them.

Hence I'm not sure there was really a problem to solve. Just like the "oh no you can't need on certain items in random dungeons anymore" rules.


This.

My idea's dumb.

I'm tired of re-inventing the wheel, when the only faulty element is the human one.
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