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Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Melathys » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:05 am

as far as coming back w/out a passport. We can't deny entry to a us citizen, but without a passport, the process might become a bit more of a pita, so its best to just have one anyway.

Kinda like how we can't arrest a USC for entering illegally (we can, however, arrest them for entering without inspection, or entering at a other than a port of entry.) (and yes, I work with customs and border patrol)
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:13 am

Nikachelle wrote:Just pointing out:

Fridmarr wrote:You still can, you just can't get back to the US without a passport, if I remember correctly.

This is incorrect, you need a passport to get into Canada from the States as of June 1, 2009 (and vice versa), via air, rail, water or car. I believe passports for car entry was the last one enforced as I've required a passport to go to and from the States for about two to three years now.
It's not incorrect. From Canada's Border Services Agency's website:

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/security-sec ... ng.html#s1

When you enter Canada, a CBSA officer may ask to see your passport and a valid visa, if one is necessary. If you are a citizen of the United States, you do not need a passport to enter Canada. However, you should carry proof of your citizenship, such as a birth certificate, certificate of citizenship or naturalization, as well as photo identification. If you are a permanent resident of Canada or the U.S, you should bring your Permanent Resident Card with you.


You probably needed the passport to come here. We are supposed to have a passport or EDL to get back into the US, but yes eventually you'll be let back in if you can prove you're a citizen.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Dorvan » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:23 am

Barathorn wrote:without wishing to generalise too much


Barathorn wrote:If you didn't treat the rest of the world the same way


Fail.

Reminds me of how "no offense, but" is almost always followed by an offensive statement.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Chicken » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:28 am

Fridmarr wrote:It's even worse than that if you are going to use passports as some sort of benchmark because until quite recently I could go to Canada (and I'd assume Mexico) and the Bahamas without a passport. You still can, you just can't get back to the US without a passport, if I remember correctly. I could literally drive for a week in any direction and I'd either be stopped by water or still be in a place where I didn't need a passport.
It's closer than you'd think actually, you only need a special type of ID to be allowed to travel intra-EU, it's a more limited passport essentially. Those aren't really actively checked for on the borders between member states of the EU either, but you're legally obligated to have one of those IDs (or a passport) if asked for by someone with the proper authority.

But I can easily drive over to another country, do some shopping there, and head back without ever showing any form of ID. Not that I've had much reason to since the introduction of the Euro, gone are the days of being able to buy a car "internationally" (Read: Place just over the border an hour away) and save a good bit of cash.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby theckhd » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:59 am

Barathorn wrote:If you didn't treat the rest of the world the same way you think you are being treated then you might not get generalised about in that fashion?

I like America, but I don't know a non feisty American with the exception of Invis and in fairness he is half cat anyway. I think the biggest flaw of America is believing as a generalisation that other countries are not as patriotic as you are.

Trust me, we are.

When, exactly, have I made broad generalizations about the rest of the world or other countries? Where did I say that other countries our not as patriotic as ours?

Please don't put words in my mouth. You're doing exactly the same generalizing that I just complained about.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Candiru » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:17 am

I think the main problem with generalisations about USCitizens is that the USA has a population which is nearly as large as the EU. This means that while some French loonies might stereotype France, they don't change stereotypes of the English, Danish or Italians.

The USA has a LOT of loonies (statistically slightly less than the EU, again), and since they all fit into the bin of "US loony" it produces a rather distorted impression compared the smaller bins of individual EU countries' loonies.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:37 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:Just pointing out:

Fridmarr wrote:You still can, you just can't get back to the US without a passport, if I remember correctly.

This is incorrect, you need a passport to get into Canada from the States as of June 1, 2009 (and vice versa), via air, rail, water or car. I believe passports for car entry was the last one enforced as I've required a passport to go to and from the States for about two to three years now.
It's not incorrect. From Canada's Border Services Agency's website:

http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/security-sec ... ng.html#s1

When you enter Canada, a CBSA officer may ask to see your passport and a valid visa, if one is necessary. If you are a citizen of the United States, you do not need a passport to enter Canada. However, you should carry proof of your citizenship, such as a birth certificate, certificate of citizenship or naturalization, as well as photo identification. If you are a permanent resident of Canada or the U.S, you should bring your Permanent Resident Card with you.


You probably needed the passport to come here. We are supposed to have a passport or EDL to get back into the US, but yes eventually you'll be let back in if you can prove you're a citizen.


Hmmm, I hadn't caught that before. While odd, it works out the same regardless.

"Visitors from any country other than the U.S. have always needed a passport to enter Canada. On the other hand, because of a friendly border crossing agreement between Canada and the United States, Canada Border Services did not require U.S. citizens to present a passport to enter Canada. This friendly border crossing agreement used to be mutual; however, now the WHTI requires that U.S. citizens have a passport to return home. In this way, passport requirements for Canada and U.S. borders are different on paper, but, are in practice, the same. Canada will not allow a U.S. citizen into the country who does not have the proper documentation to return home."
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Koatanga » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:33 pm

theckhd wrote:Actually, to be fair, I think the "wink" smiley was supposed to indicate he was joking. So maybe I'm the one that got /whooshed.

I didn't see a "bazinga" smiley, so wink was best I could do.

theckhd wrote:That said, it always annoys me when people paint all Americans with the same brush, which is something Koatanga and a few others have been doing a lot in recent posts. Statements like "Americans are X" are pretty much worthless, because you see huge variations even within a single county or state, no less geographic region.
To be fair, I think the most caustic generalisation of Americans I have made recently is saying "Americans are largely isolationist", which I believe to be true having spent most of my life there, having relatives who are still there, having visited there only 2 months ago, and reading/seeing media reports and other evidence pointing to that such as the percentage of non-military Americans who hold passports. Because, as I am sure you'd point out, unless you go somewhere and see it for yourself, you can't judge something without line-of-sight (unless it's behind you).

I don't doubt there are many enlightened individuals, but as a population, Americans are characterised - not falsely, imo - as being proud of their country to the point that they see others as inferior. This means other countries sovereignty is not as valid as the US's (e.g. - the country is headed by a dictator, therefore the US has the right to violate the sovereignty of the nation), and other countries' opinions of things are either not as accurate or not as important (or both!) as those of the US (e.g. acting against the will of the UN and/or international community).

A sociologist might use the term "ethnocentric" to describe that behaviour, but I find it impractical considering the diverse ethnic make-up of the US. But still, an ethnocentric culture doesn't mean everyone in that culture is blind to others outside of it - just that the majority is. That distinction is somewhat important when discussing a representational government like the US - the elected representatives are generally a reflection of the people voting for them, which is defined, usually, by the majority.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:03 pm

Koatanga wrote:
theckhd wrote:Actually, to be fair, I think the "wink" smiley was supposed to indicate he was joking. So maybe I'm the one that got /whooshed.

I didn't see a "bazinga" smiley, so wink was best I could do.

theckhd wrote:That said, it always annoys me when people paint all Americans with the same brush, which is something Koatanga and a few others have been doing a lot in recent posts. Statements like "Americans are X" are pretty much worthless, because you see huge variations even within a single county or state, no less geographic region.
To be fair, I think the most caustic generalisation of Americans I have made recently is saying "Americans are largely isolationist", which I believe to be true having spent most of my life there, having relatives who are still there, having visited there only 2 months ago, and reading/seeing media reports and other evidence pointing to that such as the percentage of non-military Americans who hold passports. Because, as I am sure you'd point out, unless you go somewhere and see it for yourself, you can't judge something without line-of-sight (unless it's behind you).

I don't doubt there are many enlightened individuals, but as a population, Americans are characterised - not falsely, imo - as being proud of their country to the point that they see others as inferior. This means other countries sovereignty is not as valid as the US's (e.g. - the country is headed by a dictator, therefore the US has the right to violate the sovereignty of the nation), and other countries' opinions of things are either not as accurate or not as important (or both!) as those of the US (e.g. acting against the will of the UN and/or international community).

A sociologist might use the term "ethnocentric" to describe that behaviour, but I find it impractical considering the diverse ethnic make-up of the US. But still, an ethnocentric culture doesn't mean everyone in that culture is blind to others outside of it - just that the majority is. That distinction is somewhat important when discussing a representational government like the US - the elected representatives are generally a reflection of the people voting for them, which is defined, usually, by the majority.

I'd disagree with the latter point. Sure Americans are proud of their country, and often believe it to be the best place to live. That, of course, is a widely held belief that many people have about their native countries.

However, I think when you start talking about inferiority you are using far too broad of a brush. I think it's probably safe to say that American's believe that the values traditionally held by western cultures are superior, in as much as American's value the freedoms that come with that as being essential and unalienable. You won't find that American's believe that the governments of other westernized countries are inferior, like you might with say North Korea. In fact, in the case of Europe, there are plenty of folks that believe the opposite.

The whole UN/International community thing is a bit of a different horse. We obviously feel that when push comes to shove, our own needs come first, but then we also feel other countries have that same freedom.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Brekkie » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:21 pm

To be fair, I think the most caustic generalisation of Americans I have made recently is saying "Americans are largely isolationist", which I believe to be true having spent most of my life there, having relatives who are still there, having visited there only 2 months ago, and reading/seeing media reports and other evidence pointing to that such as the percentage of non-military Americans who hold passports.


To be fair, I think the most caustic generalization of Earthlings I have made recently is saying "Earthlings are largely isolationist", which I believe to be true having spent most of my life on Earth, having relatives who are still there, having visited there just recently, and reading/seeing media reports and other evidence pointing to that such as the percentage of non-military Earthlings who have been off the planet.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Barathorn » Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:54 am

Dorvan wrote:
Barathorn wrote:without wishing to generalise too much


Barathorn wrote:If you didn't treat the rest of the world the same way


Fail.

Reminds me of how "no offense, but" is almost always followed by an offensive statement.


It wasn't meant to be offensive in any way. I am merely pointing out a perspective that a lot of people I know share that you may or may not have been aware of.

That doesn't stop me liking America as a country but you have to understand in basic terms that a lot of the time [thanks to the way that that the internet is well known for allowing ambigious statements to be made] that the generalisations Americans make [as a generalisation] are what a lot of the world is actually thinking about you in return! Generalisations are just that, a wide sweeping statement that may or not be representative. However the generalisation I made is based on what I know myself, friends and family feel.

And by saying fail all you actually do is prove my point about being feisty and having to have the last word. Ok, you win, there you go, happy? You win.

theckhd wrote:When, exactly, have I made broad generalizations about the rest of the world or other countries? Where did I say that other countries our not as patriotic as ours?

Please don't put words in my mouth. You're doing exactly the same generalizing that I just complained about.


Theck, calm down. Read what I said. I am not talking about you. I am talking about America as a whole [ie a generalisation] and offering some ideas about why sometimes the rest of the world thinks a little differently to America. I am not having a dig at you!

It isn't a contest, people 'can' have different views to the American posters on this forum and still be correct and more importantly, entitled to those ideas. Everytime someone posts and has a different idea they are either,

a/ analysed
b/ shot down in flames
c/ tried to be proved incorrect

If it honestly matters that much to you as an individual about being 'right' then you can also have my disclaimer now.

You are right I am wrong.

Can be go back to being civil now and not getting feisty? It isn't a personal affront to either of you. If you want to discuss it further PM me rather than taking the thread off track.

:wink:

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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby theckhd » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:16 am

Barathorn wrote:Generalisations are just that, a wide sweeping statement that may or not be representative. However the generalisation I made is based on what I know myself, friends and family feel.

So if you recognize that generalizations are often wide enough and sweeping enough to be completely meaningless, why do you feel that the generalizations you're making based on a limited data set (your feelings and those of your immediate family and friends) are any more valid?

Barathorn wrote:And by saying fail all you actually do is prove my point about being feisty and having to have the last word. Ok, you win, there you go, happy? You win.


I think you missed Dorvan's point. It's not about "winning." You followed "I don't want to generalize too much" with a broad, overarching generalization. He's pointing out the logical disconnect in doing so - it's like following "I don't want to resort to violence" with "but I'm going to stab you now."

Barathorn wrote:
theckhd wrote:When, exactly, have I made broad generalizations about the rest of the world or other countries? Where did I say that other countries our not as patriotic as ours?

Please don't put words in my mouth. You're doing exactly the same generalizing that I just complained about.


Theck, calm down. Read what I said. I am not talking about you. I am talking about America as a whole [ie a generalisation] and offering some ideas about why sometimes the rest of the world thinks a little differently to America. I am not having a dig at you!


Again, Bara, I think you're missing the point of my statement. First of all, I'm not sure where you're getting "fiesty" from. That entire post is calm - I'm asking a genuine question in good old Socratic method style, because I already know the answer.

And that answer is that I haven't made those sorts of generalizations. In fact, I tend to avoid generalizations about people as much as possible, it's a pet peeve of mine. In most cases, I find that "generalization" ends up being a fancy word for "stereotype." So, knowing that, let's take a look at what you wrote again:

Barathorn wrote:If you didn't treat the rest of the world the same way you think you are being treated then you might not get generalised about in that fashion?

I like America, but I don't know a non feisty American with the exception of Invis and in fairness he is half cat anyway. I think the biggest flaw of America is believing as a generalisation that other countries are not as patriotic as you are.


I see what you're saying, but the critical flaw here is that I don't get to choose how "we" treat the rest of the world. I can treat other peoples and countries respectfully myself, of course, but I can't make the other 300 million Americans share my attitude or opinions. I can vote to elect representatives that I think will share my views, but I can't guarantee 100% agreement or even ensure that they follow up on their campaign promises.

So while the statement that we get generalized the same way we generalize other countries might be true, it's not a good justification for using generalizations in the first place. Especially in the context of discussion with specific individuals on a forum, where you can address the inherent bias, attitudes, and arguments of another poster directly rather than trying to pigeonhole them into a generic mold based on country. "Americans think X" is no better than "Muslims hate America" in that sense - in each case you're taking a subset of a very diverse population and ascribing their views to every member of that population.

I realize that in a discussion about a topic as contentious as this one, it's easy to get angry and start resorting to stereotypes. But that's one way to guarantee that nothing useful will ever come from this thread. If all we can do is spit out useless generalizations that reduce a huge diverse population into a single viewpoint, then we may as well not bother having the conversation.

The only way to have a useful discussion is to talk about specifics. If we spent less time making statements like "Americans do X because they think Y," and more time saying things like "I disagree with that interpretation/attitude/opinion/action because Z," we'd get to the meat of the discussion a lot quicker and waste less time arguing over what each nation "thinks."

Barathorn wrote:It isn't a contest, people 'can' have different views to the American posters on this forum and still be correct and more importantly, entitled to those ideas. Everytime someone posts and has a different idea they are either,

a/ analysed
b/ shot down in flames
c/ tried to be proved incorrect


I don't think I ever suggested that non-American posters weren't entitled to their own ideas. And if the point of this thread is not to debate those ideas through analysis, fact-checking, and discussing them so that people get exposed to different points of view, then what is the point?

The only way people grow smarter is by having their opinions challenged and being forced to rethink and reevaluate those opinions. If someone presents an argument that makes someone question your beliefs, that's good - it means it's a starting point for that person to see if those beliefs are actually true. If we never took part in that sort of a process, the status quo would never change and human knowledge would never advance.


Barathorn wrote:If it honestly matters that much to you as an individual about being 'right' then you can also have my disclaimer now.

You are right I am wrong.

Can be go back to being civil now and not getting feisty? It isn't a personal affront to either of you. If you want to discuss it further PM me rather than taking the thread off track.


Where do you get this idea that I need to be right? I've barely even weighed in on the actual topic of the mosque. Most of my recent posts have been pointing out the folly of using broad generalizations to represent a large group of individuals. Of course, I think I'm right on that point, but I don't think that anyone here is seriously suggesting that immediately applying a nationalistic stereotype to refute someone's argument is a valid debate tactic either. My objection is that posters in this thread are using that tactic anyway, in spite of its lack of validity.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Dorvan » Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:43 am

Barathorn wrote:It isn't a contest, people 'can' have different views to the American posters on this forum and still be correct and more importantly, entitled to those ideas. Everytime someone posts and has a different idea they are either,

a/ analysed
b/ shot down in flames
c/ tried to be proved incorrect

If it honestly matters that much to you as an individual about being 'right' then you can also have my disclaimer now.

You are right I am wrong.

Can be go back to being civil now and not getting feisty? It isn't a personal affront to either of you. If you want to discuss it further PM me rather than taking the thread off track.

:wink:

Barathorn.


Hey Bara,

I don't care about being right as much as I care about discovering truth in conversations like this. You can't do that without testing ideas....analyzing them and trying to prove them incorrect. It's not an ego thing...I'm just as happy to have others help me analyze and test my own ideas. I think that's the major disconnect...when I see something that I think is logically flawed and point it out, my message is not "I'M RIGHT, YOUR'RE WRONG, HAHA", but "I think that may not be true, so let me try to disprove it so that I can either understand why it is incorrect, or discover why it is true and hopefully what mistaken assumptions on my part led to to the wrong conclusion initially". I will admit that the "fail" comment was a little snarky, and for that I apologize. The main intent was to point out the contradiction, not the "zing".

The key point is that challenging ideas is central to the process, regardless of who those ideas come from. If ideas are not analyzed and put to the test, no learning can take place.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Brekkie » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:47 am

Goddamnit.
I was almost done writing a huge essay in a logical/scientific format with supporting evidence about how I actually AGREE with bara on the points he was trying (though his language was less effective than it could have been) to make, and then something happened and the browser window somehow went back and I lost the whole thing.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Sabindeus » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:39 pm

Brekkie wrote:Goddamnit.
I was almost done writing a huge essay in a logical/scientific format with supporting evidence about how I actually AGREE with bara on the points he was trying (though his language was less effective than it could have been) to make, and then something happened and the browser window somehow went back and I lost the whole thing.


Hopefully this has taught you your lesson about writing essays in forum posting textareas.
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