Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Cataclysmic Gear Replacement

Postby Huon » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:39 pm

Moderator Note: This is not an original post for this thread, but rather the starting point for the split from another thread.

Yea...

one of the big deals I miss is having to start your alts at the bottom of the ladder. like...

hit 80 -> Regular instance/crafted gear -> heroic instance/dungeon set -> first tier --> second tier.. etc

Right now, its more like...

hit 80 -> Last tier --> profit?

I feel like older raids are totally deserted, which is sad because things like Ulduar were great. (Course TOC and Naxx sucked BALLS so in this case, its good :roll: )

But still !
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby knaughty » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:06 pm

PsiVen wrote:Yes, exactly. Schizophrenic tuning was referring to the silliness of the different gear tiers being completely out of sync with actual difficulty

Ah, well that makes some sense, but even so a fair bit of it is explained by the following rules of WotLK content:
  1. Heroic modes are harder than normal modes, sometimes much harder.
  2. 25-man is usually harder than 10-man (one or two serious exceptions)
  3. Gear from next tier of content has higher ilvl than the heroic mode gear of previous content

The matrix of (1) & (2) usually leads to heroic-10-man content being harder than 25-man-normal, while the gear it drops is "different" but not necessarily better.

Combining (1) + (3) means that your hero-mode Tier-N gear is replaced by Tier-N+1 normal-mode gear which is easier to get.

It all makes perfect sense if you did the content as it was released! Coming in as a fresh 80 alt or reroll (or new player) you can obvious skip all previous tiers and go to the current "easy" tier. Right now, that would be ICC-10 or even ICC-25. I'd expect that by far the easiest gear to get at the moment would be 251 gear from ICC-10-normal-PUG.

Having done it all when it was new - the rewards felt pretty much right. If I was rolling an alt, I'd just get some easy 251/264 gear and toss it all at level 81-83 for green quest rewards anyway.

It will annoy me that my full set of 277 gear will also be tossed in the bin (or the RP bag) by 85. Would have been nice to be able to do first Tier-11 raid instance in it.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:30 pm

knaughty wrote:Having done it all when it was new - the rewards felt pretty much right. If I was rolling an alt, I'd just get some easy 251/264 gear and toss it all at level 81-83 for green quest rewards anyway.

Did you go through it on 10 man too? I think I prefer the new model where the 10 man gear is equal, but I say that having never seriously done the 10 man stuff as new without also doing the 25 man.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby PsiVen » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:03 pm

It will annoy me that my full set of 277 gear will also be tossed in the bin (or the RP bag) by 85. Would have been nice to be able to do first Tier-11 raid instance in it.


For most classes except tanks (who needed to change to gear with shitloads more defense) this was exactly what was wrong with Naxx: it let you wear full Sunwell gear to clear the place, and as a result was far too easy. Trust me, you don't really want this.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:05 am

PsiVen wrote:
It will annoy me that my full set of 277 gear will also be tossed in the bin (or the RP bag) by 85. Would have been nice to be able to do first Tier-11 raid instance in it.


For most classes except tanks (who needed to change to gear with shitloads more defense) this was exactly what was wrong with Naxx: it let you wear full Sunwell gear to clear the place, and as a result was far too easy. Trust me, you don't really want this.


Depends. If heroics were to drop ilvl 300 blues, and T11 raids dropped ilvl300 epics, then 277/284 epics might be just about appropriate and balanced for T11 raiding. And it would be nice to not just farm our way to BiS and throw it out for levelling greens.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby knaughty » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:08 am

Fridmarr wrote:
knaughty wrote:Having done it all when it was new - the rewards felt pretty much right. If I was rolling an alt, I'd just get some easy 251/264 gear and toss it all at level 81-83 for green quest rewards anyway.

Did you go through it on 10 man too? I think I prefer the new model where the 10 man gear is equal, but I say that having never seriously done the 10 man stuff as new without also doing the 25 man.

Fully cleared everything including all hard modes, both 10 & 25, almost entirely in correct order.

Didn't do Yogg+0 25-man until after ToC had been released.
PsiVen wrote:
It will annoy me that my full set of 277 gear will also be tossed in the bin (or the RP bag) by 85. Would have been nice to be able to do first Tier-11 raid instance in it.

For most classes except tanks (who needed to change to gear with shitloads more defense) this was exactly what was wrong with Naxx: it let you wear full Sunwell gear to clear the place, and as a result was far too easy. Trust me, you don't really want this.

Trust me, I do really want this. I actually liked the fact that as a guild went straight into Naxx with Sunwell gear.

I had full Sunwell gear (which I had to replace), but my DPS and heals just wandered in as-is. We skipped the 5-man grind and went straight to raids.

It was more convenient from the perspective of the guild - we got straight back to raiding instead of farming bullshit 5-man content. It also made more sense from a lore perspective, if you car about that stuff - we're heroes, dudes - we drove off fucking Kil'Jaeden and rescued the damn planet. It don't need to steal some backwoods redneck warlord's Mace of Whatever - I looted a god-weapon from the treasure hoard of a servant of Sargeras.

I don't like collecting gear. I like raiding, learning and defeating content. Gear is simply a mechanism that is used to gate content I want to fight. I would prefer an entirely mechanical and fixed gear progression - tokens and badges are sort of close enough, but RNG gear is fucktastic. I killed heroic BQL nineteen fucking times and we had zero shields drop.

I would be totally happy with "Light of the Dawn" = "you get to skip 5-mans".

Even for WotLK as a tank, I didn't do significant amounts of 5-man content prior to raiding:
  1. Ding! 80! 22nd November, 2008
  2. 22nd Nov -Equip full set of crafted tanking gear.
  3. 23rd Nov - Run 10 heroics (mostly to tune UI and practice new rotation), then ignore 5-man content until we're on 25-man hard modes and I get bored.
  4. 23rd Nov - Arachnid & plague quarter
  5. 24th - Sarth + Construct Quarters.
  6. 25th - Military & Sapph, then server reset before we could do KT
  7. 26th - Arachnid & plague quarter 25-man
  8. 28th - Get bored, run one heroic.
  9. 30th - Construct, Military, Sapph & Sarth 25-man
  10. 1st Dec - KT-25
  11. 5th Dec - Get bored, run one heroic.
  12. 7th Dec - Malygos-2, start on hard modes, start running 5-man heroics.
Last edited by knaughty on Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby knaughty » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:11 am

Meloree wrote:Depends. If heroics were to drop ilvl 300 blues, and T11 raids dropped ilvl300 epics, then 277/284 epics might be just about appropriate and balanced for T11 raiding. And it would be nice to not just farm our way to BiS and throw it out for levelling greens.

Sadly, I don't have BiS. Missing the damn 277 shield!!! (have the rest, including all the situational stuff).

Still, it will probably be something I can blacksmith up.

The other advantage of the 277/284 stuff is that it's dripping in sockets, which are usually missing from entry-level gear.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Lieris » Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:42 am

You will quickly replace a bunch of things especially because of the bonus armour nerf. There will probably be a better chest than T10 by turning in 8 boar hides now! :P None of your raid gear will survive beyond level 83.

http://cata.wowhead.com/item=51265
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:45 am

The sockets prevent your 264 stuff from being replaced by greens.

But keep in mind GC has said that the conversion job they did on the WotLK gear is a little screwy, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the stats change.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Bastien » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:11 am

Sabindeus wrote:The sockets prevent your 264 stuff from being replaced by greens.

But keep in mind GC has said that the conversion job they did on the WotLK gear is a little screwy, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the stats change.


There's also the fact that WotLK gear doesn't have Mastery as a stat. You may or may not care about that, but it's something to consider.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Arianne » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:27 am

It depends on if you think that the BC way was better than the WotLK way. In BC you had to run heroics before you did raids (or the same time as), partially because entry level stuff was tuned higher and partially because you didn't have quite such good loot coming out of Vanilla. In WotLK you could jump into Naxx with people who were 79 and wearing Sunwell gear and heroics pretty much never offered you a gear upgrade.

I'm not sure which I preferred more. I liked having hard heroics, but I also liked not having to farm heroics in order to raid (because having 3 raid tanks take 22 other people through heroics is sorta painful). Maybe this time they'll go with two tier difficulty, where the one raid and a set of 2-3 heroics are one difficulty and the other raid and 2-3 heroics are a harder difficulty. Though maybe that's not such a good idea because then people doing the RDF will just cycle through when they get the ones that are 'harder'. /sigh
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Candiru » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:44 am

Just limit the maximum value of a gem in a socketed gear, in the same way as enchants are limited? If you could have only used TBC gems in TBC gear, it would have been a lot harder to get uncrit in sunwell gear, and heroics gear would have been an upgrade!
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:51 am

Meloree wrote:Depends. If heroics were to drop ilvl 300 blues, and T11 raids dropped ilvl300 epics, then 277/284 epics might be just about appropriate and balanced for T11 raiding. And it would be nice to not just farm our way to BiS and throw it out for levelling greens.


I don't think 300 is the target for 85...? I mean I am seeing ilvl 282 or so blues from L80-81 quests...
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:07 pm

The level 85 epic craftables are ilevel 359.
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Re: Tanking Rotation in Cataclysm

Postby Lieris » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:09 pm

Sabindeus wrote:
Meloree wrote:Depends. If heroics were to drop ilvl 300 blues, and T11 raids dropped ilvl300 epics, then 277/284 epics might be just about appropriate and balanced for T11 raiding. And it would be nice to not just farm our way to BiS and throw it out for levelling greens.


I don't think 300 is the target for 85...? I mean I am seeing ilvl 282 or so blues from L80-81 quests...


Level 85 blues are 339+ and the epics are 359 judging by the craftables. Seriously we can forget about using any of our current gear for max level dungeons let alone raiding or heroics.

From what I can tell 264-277 stuff won't be replaced with greens but decent dungeon/quest/craftable blues will be better.
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