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Exorcism

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Exorcism

Postby Yelena » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:59 pm

Arianne wrote:Our 969 rotation is constrained by the need to keep up HS and Judgement (for JotJ). Warriors don't even have that much.

Just for the sake of curiousity; amongst your gross oversimplification of how Warriors actually work, countless threats of quitting the game if we even vaguely resemble Warriors (of which we already have quite a few similarities, to be brutally honest), and don't want anything beyond a rehashed 969 rotation (partly because your definition of what a priority queue is shows a fundamental lack of understanding)... Have you ever actually played a Prot Warrior in the endgame, in such a fashion to form a firm understanding of how the class plays and works?
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:00 pm

theckhd wrote:
Arianne wrote:
Theck wrote:In fact, the best argument you could come up with for 969 not being a queue is that it in fact decouples into two separate queues, one for 9's and one for 6's. Which is still a priority queue implementation, just with two orthogonal queues.


Exactly. It's not one simplistic queue and the order that you use your abilities differs by what you want to do. It'd be much better if they gave us a proc for each queue than dumb our rotation down into one priority queue.

No. It is still one simplistic queue. It just happens to be separable, so that you can fill it multiple different ways and get the same steady-state rotation.



It's true kids! Try it at home:

1. Hit all your buttons in any order you want. Just roll your face on the keyboard.
2. Now use one ability every GCD as the cooldowns finish.
3. Observe that regardless of the order you started with, in the next rotation you're doing 969!

:O

SCIENCE
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Arianne » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:35 pm

I was talking to someone who used to play a prot paladin with me in a guild earlier in the expansion. He is pretty much the definition of a casual player and when I asked him what he thought of our 969 rotation, he had no idea what I was talking about. He just hit things as they came off cooldown. So yeah, you can do a 969 rotation that drops 1-2 GCDs and do moderately well at tanking. He was never a great tank and the fact that he didn't even know that much means that he would never have been a great tank.

And yes, I know that warriors have to use thunder clap and demo shout once every 30 seconds. It never gets mentioned when you're talking about their priority queue, so why should I mention it? My warrior is 72, so no, I've never done endgame tanking, but I've never managed to get farther than that since it's boring. I've also played Ret.

I view the 969 rotation as a different thing than a priority queue. Priority queues are where you end up hitting one button most of the time (ie devestate) until something else comes up (ie: shield slam, revenge).

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Re: Exorcism

Postby Arcand » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:37 pm

Flex wrote:So do you play your warrior in such a way that every time you press Devastate you wait a beat to see if SnB procced or are you already pressing the next ability to minimize dead space? For me I usually lose one GCD every time SnB procs.


I generally hit it one GCD later too. There's been a fair bit of discussion over at
Insufferable Twats about Fingers of Frost procs, and people claiming that they're
so good they instantly hit Deep Freeze whenever that happens with no time lost.

Their consensus agrees with what you say - that while it isn't realistic to
use a proc the GCD after you get it, pretty well anybody can manage to use the
proc 1.5 seconds after it occurs.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:44 pm

Arianne wrote:I view the 969 rotation as a different thing than a priority queue. Priority queues are where you end up hitting one button most of the time (ie devestate) until something else comes up (ie: shield slam, revenge).


Well, that explains it. Your definition is wrong.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Arcand » Fri Aug 27, 2010 2:53 pm

Arianne wrote:I view the 969 rotation as a different thing than a priority queue. Priority queues are where you end up hitting one button most of the time (ie devestate) until something else comes up (ie: shield slam, revenge).


I would have said a priority queue is when you regularly (fuzzy word) have
more than one ability available and have to choose between them.

I'd say that queues are a great idea if...

* The difference between the optimal choice and the other choices is tuned well -
too small and nobody cares, too big and we have the "press A to not die" situation.

* The decision-making difficulty is tuned well. The design
has to give you enough time to make your decisions, such that an average player gets
some of them right and a smart, experienced player can get nearly all of them right -
if they're too fast and furious people get overloaded and they either mash random
keys or, like I did with my cat, they go download a mod and suddenly perform
about 30% better.

So revised definition - A well designed priority queue is when you regularly have
more than one ability available and have to make meaningful, challenging choices
between then.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Arianne » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:11 pm

I would agree with that Arcand. I find priority queues boring because there generally isn't much of a difference, so you can just hit whatever. 969 may not be much higher than that, but it is an added level of complexity and the elegance of a rotation over a priority queue appeals to me. A tree decision list just isn't interesting or exciting. The only DPS class I play is a shadow priest and even that I don't feel like has enough complexity (though it is possible to screw your dps up by doing things at the wrong time).
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Yelena » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:32 pm

Arianne wrote:969 may not be much higher than that, but it is an added level of complexity

Alternating using abilities from a 6 second cooldown queue and using abilities from an 8 (9) second cooldown queue isn't that complex. If there's no real-time variation to mix things up, thus making the rotation completely capable of being nested in macros, there's no level of complexity to it that a monkey can't be trained how to do.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Arianne » Fri Aug 27, 2010 3:52 pm

That's why I suggested earlier that they add a proc to add variation to each of the queues. I agree that it should be something that can't be macro'd. I don't know if that would make it too complex, but at least it's not a simple decision tree like the warrior one above.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Candiru » Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:34 pm

All rotations can be reduced to a decision chart for maximising threat, it is impossible to design it another way!

Prot paladin one is currently the simplest possible:
Is a button off CD?
Yes-->Hit it
No-->Don't press two 6s CDs after each other next time
GOTO 10

At least the warrior one requires a bit more thought. And that chart misses things like "Are Adds spawning soon?" don't use ShockWave for a bit. Or saving conc blow for stunning something. Or hitting heroic strike depending on your rage.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Paxen » Fri Aug 27, 2010 4:42 pm

I'd like a game design where it's the enemies and environment that dictates what ability you use, and not your own internal cooldowns and procs. Bears partly do this, with the AoE button (swipe), New Add button (Mangle) and the Ranged Threat button (FFF). Their single target rotation depends on cooldowns of course, so it gets a bit tedious.

Unfortunatly most wow enemies behave like training dummies with the occasional special move, so for actual fighting the game relies on internal stuff (procs and cds).
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Arcand » Fri Aug 27, 2010 5:44 pm

Things like enemies randomly getting a three-second debuff called "Wide Open", which
causes them to take double damage from ability X...do you spam X, or do you save it
for a Wide Open?

Wonder if they've considered anything like that.

Edit: Never mind, probably not. Some mod would flag the wide open guys and autotarget them.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby theckhd » Fri Aug 27, 2010 6:48 pm

Flex wrote:So do you play your warrior in such a way that every time you press Devastate you wait a beat to see if SnB procced or are you already pressing the next ability to minimize dead space? For me I usually lose one GCD every time SnB procs.


You don't have to wait a beat. S&B triggers off of the Devastate or Revenge. Between the MSBT notification in the middle of the screen, the PowerAura icon slightly below and to the left of the middle of the screen, and the reasonably loud in-game Gong sound that trigges off of the proc, it's pretty damn hard to miss.

I usually start slamming the button for my next ability 300-400 ms before the GCD is up. The GCD is 1.5 seconds. I'd guess that my reflex time is somewhere in the 200-300 ms range. That still leaves a solid 800-900 ms for me to see the proc/icon, hear the sound, and hit the button. My reaction time is sure as hell faster than that.

I also have Devastate, Shield Slam, and Revenge all on the same two mouse buttons right next to one another. It takes absolutely no time to move my hand, because a different part of my thumb rests on each button.

So in short, yeah, I can basically cover Shield Slam without losing a GCD as long as my attention isn't too distracted by something else. I could certainly see missing a GCD once in a while if you're busy moving a boss or intently looking somewhere else, but even then the Gong sound is almost an automatic reflex trigger by this point.

I'd expect about the same for any tank seriously pushing ICC hard modes.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby Yelena » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:15 pm

Arianne wrote:That's why I suggested earlier that they add a proc to add variation to each of the queues. I agree that it should be something that can't be macro'd. I don't know if that would make it too complex, but at least it's not a simple decision tree like the warrior one above.

The Warrior decision tree is more complex than what Paladins have currently on live. Assuming someone doesn't accidentally (or intentionally) hit two abilities back to back within their respective queues, any decision making process in the Paladin static two-queue rotation ends the moment you hit your second "9", following that point you're basically on auto-pilot. The decision process Warriors have doesn't reach a point in their rotation and stop abruptly; they have a rotation which seems simple on the surface, but ends up being more complex than what we are working with currently.

The Warrior rotation affords the flexibility to not severely penalize those who don't take advantage of the procs, but also allows an exceptional player to excel at performing it. The Paladin rotation doesn't have that level of interactivity to it, you can roll your face all over the keyboard, and no matter what order you hit the abilities, you will eventually fall into 969. There is no level of complexity to our current rotation beyond how fast you can hit abilities as they come off cooldown, and a lot of that is tied to latency and how fast you can spam a button anyway.

The idea of having separate procs to watch for within each queue of a two-queue system is interesting and neat, but do we need that level of complexity in our rotation? Procs are intended (on paper) to be something meaningful:
  • If it's a cooldown reset to an ability, you want to hit that ability ASAP.
  • If it's increased damage/healing/etc. for X time, you want to make the most of that period of time.
  • If it's increased damage/healing/etc. for the next X abilities you use, you want to use your hardest hitting/healing abilities.
    • In the case of Molten Core for Demonology Warlocks, it can change what abilities are used in your rotation temporarily.
For tanks, procs are typically of the "reset cooldown on ability X" variety. Do we need the level of complexity that would create in a two-queue rotation? For that matter, do we even need a two-queue rotation to be able to function? Answers equating to "I like it" and "it's more elegant" are subjective and not overly useful to the debate. To loosely quote Darielle, because it fits here appropriately:
Darielle wrote:you could ask "Why not" but you need a "Why" first.

----------------------

The fine art of "tanking elegance" is determined by the skill of the player, far moreso than the rotation of the class.
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Re: Exorcism

Postby theckhd » Fri Aug 27, 2010 7:28 pm

Arcand wrote:I would have said a priority queue is when you regularly (fuzzy word) have
more than one ability available and have to choose between them.

That definition is too limited in scope. You could always tack crap on to the bottom of our priority queue to make it fit your definition though. For a trivial example:

ShoR>Cons>HotR>Jud>HS>Divine Shield

satisfies your condition. You'll always have the option to cast DS or any of the other spells, but because all of the spells at the top of the queue fill every GCD, you'll never end up casting it.

For a less trivial example:

ShoR>Cons>HotR>HS>Sacred Shield>AS>Holy Wrath>Jud

is a perfectly valid queue that has multiple options.

Arcand wrote:So revised definition - A well designed priority queue is when you regularly have
more than one ability available and have to make meaningful, challenging choices
between then.

I think that's a fair statement, though again, the more complex you make it, the more difficult it is to divert your attention elsewhere. I wouldn't want to tank with the old kitty rotation, that's for sure.
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