New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Shoju » Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:19 pm

Flex wrote:I operate under these assumptions:
1) It is more important for Retribution to have an interrupt than Protection.
2) Holy should not have a short cooldown interrupt.

Judging from Druids' Skull Bash, every spec can access it at a 60 second cooldown and Feral gets a talent that reduces the cooldown by 50 seconds, how would you implement it for Paladins?

Baseline 60 second cooldown and both Ret and Prot gets a talent that reduces it? Such as Judgements of the Just and Pursuit of Justice?



I don't know what I would do. Personally, I don't see why ret needs it. If it were me, I would simply remove Rebuke from teh ret tree, and add it to the prot tree. Every tank needs the ability to interrupt, and this would bring it inline with the other tanks. I don't see why Ret needs an interrupt. MAYBE in pvp, but I don't even know there.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Arianne » Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:23 pm

I would put Rebuke in Tier 1 of Prot to replace that stupid HoJ talent. At least then there'd be a Tier 1 prot talent that I actually wanted.

And no, I don't care if Holy gets it. Holy has crappy offensive power and you'd have to be in melee range to use Rebuke. Resto shamans have had a ranged interrupt for forever and it hasn't caused problems.
Last edited by Arianne on Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Steve » Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:25 pm

It's a fairly simple matter of giving both talent trees a deep talented interrupt. That's no worse than the current warrior interrupt implementation with pummel/shield bash.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Chicken » Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:29 pm

Shoju wrote:
Flex wrote:I operate under these assumptions:
1) It is more important for Retribution to have an interrupt than Protection.
2) Holy should not have a short cooldown interrupt.

Judging from Druids' Skull Bash, every spec can access it at a 60 second cooldown and Feral gets a talent that reduces the cooldown by 50 seconds, how would you implement it for Paladins?

Baseline 60 second cooldown and both Ret and Prot gets a talent that reduces it? Such as Judgements of the Just and Pursuit of Justice?



I don't know what I would do. Personally, I don't see why ret needs it. If it were me, I would simply remove Rebuke from teh ret tree, and add it to the prot tree. Every tank needs the ability to interrupt, and this would bring it inline with the other tanks. I don't see why Ret needs an interrupt. MAYBE in pvp, but I don't even know there.
I'd say Ret needs it for a similar reason Prot does. Much like all the other tanks have an off the GCD interrupt, all other melee classes have an off the GCD interrupt. If one is a valid reason to give someone an interrupt, the other is too I'd say.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Yelena » Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:44 pm

Flex wrote:I operate under these assumptions:
1) It is more important for Retribution to have an interrupt than Protection.
2) Holy should not have a short cooldown interrupt.

Judging from Druids' Skull Bash, every spec can access it at a 60 second cooldown and Feral gets a talent that reduces the cooldown by 50 seconds, how would you implement it for Paladins?

Baseline 60 second cooldown and both Ret and Prot gets a talent that reduces it? Such as Judgements of the Just and Pursuit of Justice?

The main issue I see with Blizzard's current implementation is that it's entirely possible for Retribution to dance around the tree and skip Rebuke without sacrificing anything DPS-wise or picking up talents that probably will be ignored except for PvP (Eye for an Eye & Eternal Glory)*. It's little different than Silence for Shadow Priests (as I have yet to see a PvE Shadow build that takes Silence, given the prerequisite, when those points have use elsewhere). On the same token, a Restoration Shaman does have a short cooldown interrupt (Wind Shear), but they are the anomaly amongst the healers.

That said, I do agree that an implementation similar to Druids would work well; make Rebuke baseline (and long cooldown), and have the applicable talents to reduce the cooldown available to Protection/Retribution.

*If Eye for an Eye & Eternal Glory are skipped, Retribution is pretty much required to take either Rebuke or Repentance in order to advance through the tree, but my point was that it's entirely possible to skip rebuke without sacrificing the damage potential of the tree.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Flex » Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:27 pm

I wouldn't mind making Hammer of Justice the class interrupt and for Prot moving Reckoning to Improved Hammer of Justice for leveling reasons and tacking on the cooldown shortener to a talent down there and just making either Pursuit of Justice or Long Arm of the Law, depends on how Holy shakes out, the ret shortener.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby trellian » Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:11 pm

Flex wrote:
I don't see why I would have to care about what holy or ret gets when I have no intention of ever playing those specs.


Because every spec of Paladin influences the other two specs.


If it's baseline, maybe. It's not like I'm overly thrilled about flash of light or holy light as a tank. And I couldn't care less for Light of Dawn changes or Divine Storm. That was the point I was making. If it's baseline, it doesn't immediately make it useful for a tank.

Some new toys to play with, that's all I'm asking. Though I suspect with Holy Power we're all out of 'love' from Blizzard and we're just going to have to go with it. A+ for the idea of holy power, C- for how they implement it for prot. I haven't experienced it, but from all the reactions it looks like nothing but change just for the sake of change. I'm curious to hear from beta testers if they really think the way holy power works for prot is actually a good change or if Blizzard is missing the boat to do something cool with it.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Loras » Mon Aug 23, 2010 4:18 pm

Relwynd wrote:Also, maybe you guys are just lucky and have nice DPS, but when I have a runner, I can taunt, have it get 2/3's the way to me, then have it go running off again because someone had more threat/DPS'd on it/was a moron. I'm totally dependent on having the mob be able to reach me before the fixate wears off...

I hate you, Lich King ghouls. I hate you, geared-to-the-teeth fury warriors. *rant* :evil: :evil: :evil:

Flex wrote:I operate under these assumptions:
1) It is more important for Retribution to have an interrupt than Protection.
2) Holy should not have a short cooldown interrupt.

Judging from Druids' Skull Bash, every spec can access it at a 60 second cooldown and Feral gets a talent that reduces the cooldown by 50 seconds, how would you implement it for Paladins?

Baseline 60 second cooldown and both Ret and Prot gets a talent that reduces it? Such as Judgements of the Just and Pursuit of Justice?

I had a possible solution to that, maybe I haven't posted it on those forums yet - put a talent deep in the prot tree (or more like, fit it in an already existing talent) that does: Reduce the CD of Hammer of Justice (with such a number that will make the final CD 10 sec), make it off the GCD and make it able to interrupt spells, but removing the stun component.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Notorius101 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:30 pm

Flex wrote:I wouldn't mind making Hammer of Justice the class interrupt and for Prot moving Reckoning to Improved Hammer of Justice for leveling reasons and tacking on the cooldown shortener to a talent down there and just making either Pursuit of Justice or Long Arm of the Law, depends on how Holy shakes out, the ret shortener.


I would love for Reckoning to switch places with IMP HoJ but drop reckoning to a 2 point talent 15%/30% respectively, change Imp HoJ to Decreases the Cooldown of your Hammer of Justice Spell by 25/50 seconds and reduces the Global Cooldown of the spell by .75/1.5 seconds
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby knaughty » Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:33 pm

Loras wrote:I hate you, Lich King ghouls. I hate you, geared-to-the-teeth fury warriors. *rant* :evil: :evil: :evil:


Ironic revenge: I've semi-retired, my geared-to-the-teeth fury warrior is now covering my tanking job.

I was listening in on vent last night while he was trying to tank ghouls and he was complaining about them wandering back to the melee. I said "Yeah, it's a real problem, damn fury warriors peel them all back"

Tip for ghouls: RD off the Fury warrior, then throw a frisbee (not glphyed. You'll usually pick up 2 in 3. 30 yard Judgment will be sexy for stuff like this.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Tev » Tue Aug 24, 2010 7:18 am

You know, rather than a gap closer or interrupt, I would rather have something that makes those things non issues to us. A deep Prot activatable ability that makes us un-CCable for a duration with a relatively short CD, would negate the need for a gap closer (especially with PoJ). As far as an interrupt, it would be nice if we could cause a backlash effect, 4 sec debuff that causes the spells the target casts to have a backlash effect.. Basically the spell they cast still goes off, but has an added detrimental effect, such as hitting themselves and an ally with the same spell if it's offencive in nature, or burning mana from the caster/target if it's heal oriented. Instead of interrupting their spell, we make them want to stop casting themselves (or not).

That's one thing I liked in BC is that we could do the job but in our own distinct way (although we still lacked a a few critical aspects that have now).
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Minarva » Tue Aug 24, 2010 8:28 am

Those things you suggested are only useful in PvP, an aspect many of us don't care about on our mainspecs at least. The whole point of something like backlash is similar to the new DK spell reflect, and that doesn't work on a variety of PvE situations.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:16 am

Loras wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:I don't think silence + disarm - daze works as a gap closer though, Loras, because gap closer doesn't mean pulling tool, it means way to shorten distance between you and something/someone else.

Mobs coming to you instead of standing on their place shooting is not a distance closer?

If you treat DG as a gap-closer (yeah yeah, I obviously don't know what it's doing), then AS is a similar half-working one (as it also doesn't work in raid boss environment, but for other situations doesn't solve the problem with archers).

Let's put it this way:
1. Warriors and Bears have a fully working identical gap closer that A) moves THEM to the BOSS, B) works on EVERY fight
2. DKs and Paladins have an "identical" gap closer that A) moves MOBS to THEM, B) works only in limited situations
Point 2.A seems most logical for fixing if AS has a disarm. As currently DG can move ANY non-immune mob to you instantly, be it melee, caster, or archer. Our AS makes it so that melees and casters move to us, but not archers. Granted, if it disarms also, that will be a gap closer for 3 targets simultaneously, compared to DG and its 1 target, but that would come at the price of speed (DG does it instantly, AS requires time).

And you do NOT need a gap closer, but as someone said, it's nice and fun to have. If 2 or 3 other tank classes have it, then I don't see a reason not to. Same with off-GCD interrupts. You do not need one - your dpsers can interrupt. With other 3 tank classes getting one, don't you wanna have it too? And since I'm sure people will jump on the DG ability comments again - I am not asking for a charge-like gap closer (although I'd love it) - gimme something from the caliber of DG and I'll be fine. That's why I suggested about the disarm component of AS to make it even.

I guess our definitions of distance closers are different. Mine is that it has to reduce the distance between me and the thing I want closer to me. Yours seems like it has to reduce the distance between you and the thing you want closer to you, IF it has aggro on you already.

A gap closer should work in PvP, in PvE, and preferably against bosses. Bosses aren't as vital because they're almost never designed to need gap closing themselves (threat dropping marrowgar was annoying and stupid, but they fixed it.) It's usually fresh adds, special events, etc. that require fast movement, and not getting to the boss on the pull or something mundane like that. I just know that I have legitimate reasons for using my rocket boots while I'm tanking, and can't imagine tanking without them anymore.

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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Dantriges » Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:23 am

knaughty wrote:
Loras wrote:I hate you, Lich King ghouls. I hate you, geared-to-the-teeth fury warriors. *rant* :evil: :evil: :evil:


Ironic revenge: I've semi-retired, my geared-to-the-teeth fury warrior is now covering my tanking job.

I was listening in on vent last night while he was trying to tank ghouls and he was complaining about them wandering back to the melee. I said "Yeah, it's a real problem, damn fury warriors peel them all back"

Tip for ghouls: RD off the Fury warrior, then throw a frisbee (not glphyed. You'll usually pick up 2 in 3. 30 yard Judgment will be sexy for stuff like this.


Yea I actually liked it when the fury got aggro, so I could use RD/AS on him, instead of taunting/doing aggro stuff on them separately every one separately.
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Re: New Beta Build Build 12803 8/20/2010

Postby Rasmfrackn » Tue Aug 24, 2010 9:32 am

knaughty wrote:30 yard Judgment will be sexy for stuff like this.

Yep. Though somewhat less sexy than damage on taunt. Especially since judging something without a 5-stack of Censure seems to do about 1/2 of what taunt damage does on live with the same AP...
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