Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

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Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby mew » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:12 am

Are we allowed to make threads like this that are specifically for discussing something controversial, will probably get out of hand, and has a high chance of ending up locked? I know we're not supposed to derail threads in to that but if the thread is specifically for it is that cool?


I was wondering what you guys thought about the mosque that's being protested in NY.

I don't want to pick an article to link, so instead I'll just link to a google search:
http://www.google.com/search?q=mosque+n ... =firefox-a
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Dorvan » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:29 am

I'm always up for discussing political topics. Sure, there's a risk of things getting out of hand, but by and large people have done a good job of keeping themselves in check in such discussions. There have been at least a dozen threads on hot button issues here before.


Personally, I don't have a strong opinion about the mosque itself, but some of the rhetoric I've heard really gets me going. People are free to like or dislike the idea of the mosque....but in terms of the government taking any action, this is a clear first amendment situation as far as I'm concerned. Also, I think it's important to keep in mind where it's located....it's actually two blocks away from ground zero and not within view of the site:

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(Ground Zero is in purple, the proposed Cordoba house site in red)

Pragmatically speaking, it does seem that if one of the goals of the center is peace and reconciliation, that goal is DOA and may make the project worth reconsidering.

On the whole though, any thoughtful dialogue seems to be drowned out by hordes of politicians and commentators looking to score political points off of fear of Islam/Muslims.

edit -- for a more hands on feel, you can walk the streets near ground zero:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source= ... ,,0,-16.57

The Burlington Coat Factory building is the proposed Cordoba house site.
Last edited by Dorvan on Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Arnock » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:36 am

Although I personally don't like the fact that they're building a mosque so close to ground zero. There really is no legal reason to prevent them from building it. The constitution guarantees religious freedom to everyone, and we can't simply pick and choose who we can or can't provide that to.

EDIT:
Dorvan wrote:On the whole though, any thoughtful dialogue seems to be drowned out by hordes of politicians and commentators looking to score political points off of fear of Islam/Muslims.



This. It seems to me that this is being made a much bigger issue than it already is. Some politicians seem to be going out of their way to make this into a big issue simply to gain support with the far right. But in the mean-time, they're betraying their principals of sticking to the constitution.
Last edited by Arnock on Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:38 am

I don't have a personal feeling on this topic, but I read something that is related and thought I'd share.
"In fairness, we've been building 'ground zeros' near Iraqi mosques since March 2003."
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby faithlessnub » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:43 am

hmm, wonder why it took so long to start a topic on this ^_^

Freedom of religion is a big right in the United States of America and on that grounds alone the building should be built.
On the other hand if by building it it causes a large number of people to openly vandalize it, impede it construction progress, and/or outright destroy its presence would be just cause headaches.

While i try to believe that be are smart, rational, and logical creatures (HA!), i just get a terrible feeling that neither side of the argument is going to achieve anything from this.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby mew » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:54 am

Yeah, that's pretty much what I'm hearing from everywhere. How it's not violent, not threatening, and often exaggerated ("It's on ground zero and they want to dedicate it on 9-11") are overlooked by fear. I have a friend that made an interesting statement about how Muslims seemm to be the only religious group that America (generalized as a whole) can't seem to distinguish the extremists from the rest of the followers.

And then that the opposition seems to be no more than whatever the nerdrage equivalent is for regular people. The best argument I've heard against the mosque is that it is insulting. Another friend of mine said that he feels insulted that it is so close to GZ (then I explained to him how it is not close); after a couple hours of talking to him about how the other side of it probably feels he dropped that angle of it's insulting that they are actually doing it and focused more on that it is also insulting that they are wanting to dedicate it on September 11th.

It seems that the Muslim holiday of Eid this year falls on September 10, 2010, which is just kind of unfortunate for everyone. I'm not really sure what to say about that (like the insulted feeling by the opposition, it's just something I can't really understand so all I can do is acknowledge it) other than that they could consider picking a different holiday to dedicate the building on.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:56 am

From a poll released this morning, most New Yorkers are not in favor of the mosque, but do recognize that there is a constitutional right to build it.

I really don't care too much about it to be honest.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:59 am

mew wrote:I have a friend that made an interesting statement about how Muslims seemm to be the only religious group that America (generalized as a whole) can't seem to distinguish the extremists from the rest of the followers.

I don't think that is accurate at all.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Dorvan » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:03 am

mew wrote:I have a friend that made an interesting statement about how Muslims seemm to be the only religious group that America (generalized as a whole) can't seem to distinguish the extremists from the rest of the followers.


Unfortunately, they're not alone. I can say from personal experience that if you mention evangelical Christianity many people pile on all kinds of negative attitudes and assumptions about you, your lifestyle, your political beliefs, etc... The media does a terrible job of explaining nuances of religion, and many people across the political spectrum would rather flame and stick to stereotypes than to to actually understand someone's beliefs.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Shoju » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:12 am

As a warning: My post is personal experiences, as the son of a former 4 square gospel pastor. My post will be a little more religious than most, and will probably be a little judgemental of things. If you hold Christianity sacred, and can't have a rational discussion about it, I highly suggest that you skip this post. I'm not going to attack god, jesus, the holy spirit, Allah, Muhammed, or anyone else, but I will probably have some very not nice things to say about the human beings who have muddled things.

The central problem that this is having is very simple. In the wake of 9/11, Al-Qaeda, and the war in Iraq, The American media has made a very large and public case at vilifying Muslim Extremists. The problem is, There hasn't been enough attention paid to the fact that those who perpetrated the attack on the WTC, and those who perpetrate acts of terrorism around the world are just that;

Extremists

If you actually take the time to understand Islam, and Christianity, you would be astounded by what they share. Islam is not a violent religion. Islam is as similar to their beliefs as the Jewish faith, yet you will find people willing to openly speak with Members of that faith, while cowering in fear at a Muslim.

For more information on the similarities even including the jewish faith, read here

The problem that I have is, (and this is a biased opinion based on my life experiences) Christians are quick to condemn the religion of Islam because of its extremists, while trying as hard as it possibly can to shuffle their own extremists under the rug and out of sight. The real 'pinnacle' of Christian extremism was probably the 1980's, a decade where topics like Homosexuality, and Abortion dominated headlines. During the 1980's Christian extremists engaged in bombings of abortion clinics (and sometimes free health clinics not tied to abortions at all), assassinations of doctors who were 'baby killers' and one of the most hate filled campaigns to ever taget a non racial demographic of the populace (homosexuals).

None of these actions in the 80's could be construed as acceptable when looking at the bible, at the teachings of god, and Jesus Christ. Yet many Christians (especially older christians in places of authority in the United States) wish to make these extremists disappear while continuously trashing all of Islam, and condeming the entire religion as extremists bent on killing them.

I can't speak much about Jewish extremism, because.... well I wont lie, I know the similarities between the religions, but I don't know of any jewish extremist violence except for the clashes between Israel and Palestine over the holy land. (both claim it, both have a right to it, but neither can share)

If Christians looked in the bible, you will find that Christians aren't supposed to be ganking the guy next to him for having a different religion, or sexual orientation, or belief in abortion. They are supposed to love, and talk, and teach, and witness. These things aren't being applied to the religion of Islam. Instead of realizing the differences, and realizing that the extremist movement in Islam is no different than their own dirty underbelly, Christians (as a whole, not all) are too quick to condemn them.

For me? I don't care. I hope that they build the community center. I hope in this community center they try to truly educate the ignorant masses of Americans who are too stupid to see past the fear mongering that the Conservatives in this country are perpetrating upon them.

It isn't on ground zero. It is near ground zero. Like someone else said while I was writing this, we haven't stopped dropping ground zero on their mosques in the middle east. We haven't shown the least bit of understanding and tolerance that this nation is supposed to pride itself on. Too many times people lose the idea that Freedom of Religion is granted to all in this country. That includes Catholicism, Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Wikkan (sp?), or whatever other religion it is that doesn't mesh with your own belief system.

They aren't trying to erect this center as a war victory monument. Get over it, let them build it, collect their monies stop being so ignorant.

Sorry for the rant. I just hate seeing the way that my parents and their friends, and so many misguided people look at this situation. I recently went to a mens breakfast with my father, and the amount of fear in that room when they started talking about this was astounding. This is a group of old men. I was so disgusted that I walked outside. My father begged me to come back in and not make a scene. I came back in, and ended up giving them a lesson about Islam and christianity. It was amazing how many of these old men didn't realize that they prayed to the same god.
Last edited by Shoju on Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby warden » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:15 am

Fridmarr wrote:From a poll released this morning, most New Yorkers are not in favor of the mosque, but do recognize that there is a constitutional right to build it.

I really don't care too much about it to be honest.


Yep... speaking from someone in a decidedly more conservative portion of society, this fairly well reflects most of us (here in my workplace) as well. I definately think that with the heated emotions on the issue it probably falls into the cateory of "bad ideas", and I don't personally agree with it, but I think that drumming up a transparent excuse to keep them from building it "just because" is far worse.

Edit: Re, Shoju, as a history major I would have to disagree about the pinnacle of Christian extremeism being the 1980s. I know, totally nitpickey, but the Crusades, the "conversion" of many native tribes in North/South America, and the religious wars between Catholics and Protestants, particularly in France, were quite extreme times as well.
Last edited by warden on Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby katraya » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:18 am

Fridmarr wrote:
mew wrote:I have a friend that made an interesting statement about how Muslims seemm to be the only religious group that America (generalized as a whole) can't seem to distinguish the extremists from the rest of the followers.

I don't think that is accurate at all.


Do you not believe that people have a hard time differentiating extremists from average Muslims (in which case I would strongly disagree with you) or do just not think that they are the only religion where this is the case?
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby mew » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:34 am

Shoju wrote:Sorry for the rant. I just hate seeing the way that my parents and their friends, and so many misguided people look at this situation. I recently went to a mens breakfast with my father, and the amount of fear in that room when they started talking about this was astounding. This is a group of old men. I was so disgusted that I walked outside. My father begged me to come back in and not make a scene. I came back in, and ended up giving them a lesson about Islam and christianity. It was amazing how many of these old men didn't realize that they prayed to the same god.

That's kind of why I wanted to make a thread about it too, the issue carries personal weight for me (seeing other people being unrightfully discriminated against out of what I feel is no more than ignorance and unwarranted fear).
And from my experiences, when people are very set in their ways like that (young and old) you can tell them the facts and they will listen to you, but after you are out of sight again they brush it off and revert back to their old thought process.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:43 am

katraya wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
mew wrote:I have a friend that made an interesting statement about how Muslims seemm to be the only religious group that America (generalized as a whole) can't seem to distinguish the extremists from the rest of the followers.

I don't think that is accurate at all.


Do you not believe that people have a hard time differentiating extremists from average Muslims (in which case I would strongly disagree with you) or do just not think that they are the only religion where this is the case?

The latter.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Flex » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:43 am

why do Conservative politicians hate property rights?!
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