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Let's talk Support & Situational Skills

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Let's talk Support & Situational Skills

Postby Bobness » Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:45 am

Tier 1

1) Protector of the Innocent.
This seems to be a weak Holy Skill, utterley pointless for Prot.

2) Improved Hammer of Justice
This seems to have fallen down the Ret Paladin's wishlist with Rebuke arriving, no longer interrupts spell casting, now a filler talent 40 secs vs 60 secs to interrupt, you won't rely on a Prot Paladin to interrupt.

Tier 2

3) Guardians Favour
Another highly situational filler which is just within reach of other specs, does any one consider this a useful expenditure of Points for Prot ?

Tier 4

4) Reckoning
A 3% - 10% chance to generate four additional attacks, still looks highly situational, potentially fun but has always been a relatively marginal DPS increase.

Tier 5

5) Guarded by the Light
As it stands this looks like a mediocre Talent that could potentially with tweaks be quite good.

From What I can see 7 out of the first 15 Talent points are pretty much a waste, or am I missing the point here ?

P.S I'm not even mentioning all the New proc based talent points or the dull make consecration useable again Talent.
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Re: Let's talk Support & Situational Skills

Postby Arianne » Tue Aug 17, 2010 9:55 am

They're giving you 'choice' in your talent trees by making several of the talents in each tier mostly useless. So there's one 'mandatory' talent that you will use and want and then there's another couple of talents that you just have to take one of in order to go down any farther.
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Re: Let's talk Support & Situational Skills

Postby Torquemada » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:53 am

Keep in mind that between the changes to avoidance levels and the changes to Reckoning that it will actually get scale/get better with improved gear, as opposed to the last years when the better your avoidance the less it put out.
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Re: Let's talk Support & Situational Skills

Postby PsiVen » Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:52 pm

The inverse scaling was always overblown, but I agree new Reckoning will be more worthwhile.
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Re: Let's talk Support & Situational Skills

Postby Neptuno » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:32 am

most of these talents you point out as not as good are pvp oriented talents or maybe just prot grinding methods

perhaps its not meant that way, but PotI in Tier 1 doesn't say "your devotion aura" so I have to wonder if it is what is says or what blizzard means.
tier 2 you have 5 other points in there already so who cares if bop can be off cd sooner? there's no room for that unless we see another anub hard mode style encounter.for reckoning, i'll have to see itemization for t11 gear, but i blocking seems to not be as often an occurrence looking at how current gear changes in beta

i'm more concerned with what glyphs will morph to atm since at least we can look at talents.
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Re: Let's talk Support & Situational Skills

Postby Chasey » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:44 am

There is still time to change it up and I bet the current set up won't make it live. I'm not really happy about the 1st few tiers either but holy and ret have a chance at those talents and they don't want to offer anything to sexy.

As others have said, we do have our core points to take and the jury is still out on Reckoning.
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Re: Let's talk Support & Situational Skills

Postby Modal » Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:12 pm

I actually really like the current talent trees (not 100% thrilled with current rotation, and that can be fixed with talents, but that's sort of a separate issue).

Here is a list of talents that seem absolutely mandatory to me. It's actually pretty short, and doesn't include a single talent in the first tier, which is weird. These are all in the Prot tree.

Mandatory Talents
Toughness
Judgements of the Just
Sanctuary
Hammer of the Righteous
Shield of the Righteous
Divine Guardian
Holy Shield
Vindication
Shield of the Templar
Ardent Defender

Now, we'll surely want some more threat talents, but probably won't need all of them. We won't know which one's we'll prioritize until theck can do some theorycraft and we have a better idea how hard AoE tanking is going to be and whether we're going to really have to do much of it.

Threat Talents
Seals of the Pure
Hallowed Ground
Wrath of the Lightbringer
Grand Crusader
Reckoning
Sacred Duty
----here we go into other trees----
Judgements of the Pure
Arbiter of the Light
Crusade
Eye for an Eye
Rule of Law

And then there are utility talents. There's really only one (Guardian's Favor) that seems like it would only be worth taking for PvP, but even it has conceivable PvE benefits. "Utility" is sort of a catch-all here; I'm including talents that even affect survivability but not necessarily mitigation (Divinity) and excluding only those few talents that seem 100% useless for prot and intended for Holy. Imp. HoJ is not amazing for a PvE tank, but that stun does come in handy and no tank should neglect it as part of her toolkit.

Utility Talents
Improved Hammer of Justice
Guarded by the Light
--------other trees----------
Divinity
Last Word
Healing Light
Improved Judgement
Eternal Glory
Pursuit of Justice

And there are lots and lots of trade-offs to make between and within the last two categories.

Just off the top of my head, here are some interesting builds.

Survival-oriented WoG-shield build for progression boss tanking
10/31/0 OR
0/31/10 depending on whether it's better to have the occasional HoPo-free WoG or harder-hitting but non-free WoGs, and/or how much RNG you're comfortable with.

Balanced AE, single-target threat build
0/36/3 (still has 2 points free)

Likely max single-target threat build
2/31/8

Non-threat-maximized build with some nice utility
3/31/7

All of these builds look to me like they involve reasonable trade-offs depending on your situation and priorities, while getting every manadatory talent and several threat talents. I'm sure anyone who looks at these builds will see places where talents I didn't take are more attractive to them than talents I did, and probably you can make those swaps without breaking the viability of the build--your choices are valid too! I honestly think the developers are getting close to nailing their design goal for the talent tree at this point.
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Re: Let's talk Support & Situational Skills

Postby xstrykr » Wed Aug 18, 2010 3:43 pm

Modal wrote:I actually really like the current talent trees (not 100% thrilled with current rotation, and that can be fixed with talents, but that's sort of a separate issue).

Same here. I haven't had time to go on the beta in the last week or two, been pretty busy, but I should have some time here shortly to get back in there and see how things do.

Here is a list of talents that seem absolutely mandatory to me. It's actually pretty short, and doesn't include a single talent in the first tier, which is weird. These are all in the Prot tree.

Mandatory Talents
Toughness
Judgements of the Just
Sanctuary
Hammer of the Righteous
Shield of the Righteous
Divine Guardian
Holy Shield
Vindication
Shield of the Templar
Ardent Defender

I'd argue a bit with Divine Guardian; it's probably more of Utility than it is Mandatory, however I haven't seen whether it's off the GCD or not. If it is off the GCD, it could very well be OP and therefore mandatory; however, if it requires a GCD just like the original Divine Guardian did, then I'd label it more as "strongly recommended as there's not much better at this tier."

As for your Threat/Utility talents, I think they're pretty spot-on. Definitely will affect the balance a bit. I have always preferred balancing threat and utility myself, so I'd probably take more utility talents anyway.

All of these builds look to me like they involve reasonable trade-offs depending on your situation and priorities, while getting every manadatory talent and several threat talents. I'm sure anyone who looks at these builds will see places where talents I didn't take are more attractive to them than talents I did, and probably you can make those swaps without breaking the viability of the build--your choices are valid too! I honestly think the developers are getting close to nailing their design goal for the talent tree at this point.


Agreed, even if the playstyle of the paladin has changed dramatically, I think the talent trees really will help reinforce what they want from us. I just want the devs to make up their damn minds about what they want our rotations to be.
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Re: Let's talk Support & Situational Skills

Postby Modal » Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:29 pm

xstrykr wrote:I'd argue a bit with Divine Guardian; it's probably more of Utility than it is Mandatory,


Can't it be utility and mandatory? 1 point for a raid-wide mitigation CD!?!
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Re: Let's talk Support & Situational Skills

Postby Gideon » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:37 pm

I suppose most people would interpret mandatory as a required "pure" tanking talent. Divine guardian doesn't fit that description but raid leaders may make it mandatory for their raids.

Reckoning is taking a hit with the reduced seal damage in the new build. Anyone who remembers Mchammar and Jamaz probably secretly hopes that Blizzard will one day buff this talent heavily.

Speaking of situational utilities, was I the only person upset by the removal of Divine Intervention? It had no real effect on the game unless they went ahead and homogenised it with combat rez and soulstone. Nevertheless, it was a cool and flavourful spell. It would be like replacing the charger model with a chestnut mare. I'd travel just as fast (and probably on a chopper anyway) but we're losing some of our uniqueness without it being a buff, nerf or QoL change. Pointless.
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Re: Let's talk Support & Situational Skills

Postby Modal » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:38 pm

Gideon wrote:Speaking of situational utilities, was I the only person upset by the removal of Divine Intervention?


I can understand why they'd want to remove it; too much abuse potential with DI (heroic Saurfang?), and it seems like they're getting rid of wipe recovery abilities.
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Re: Let's talk Support & Situational Skills

Postby xstrykr » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:32 pm

Modal wrote:
xstrykr wrote:I'd argue a bit with Divine Guardian; it's probably more of Utility than it is Mandatory,


Can't it be utility and mandatory? 1 point for a raid-wide mitigation CD!?!

Touche. Right this second, I probably would just take it for progression, and probably macro it into my BubbleWall.

Modal wrote:
Gideon wrote:Speaking of situational utilities, was I the only person upset by the removal of Divine Intervention?


I can understand why they'd want to remove it; too much abuse potential with DI (heroic Saurfang?), and it seems like they're getting rid of wipe recovery abilities.

I'm a bit upset too, but not so much so that I'd cry for it again.
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Re: Let's talk Support & Situational Skills

Postby Nèlya » Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:39 am

It seemed to me that divine guardian was the spell that could justify our tree having no spell interupt. Just because it can cover some incoming spell damage situations for you and to protect your group, instead of just countering the source spell. In that model, I think it should apply it's DR to the paldin as on live. Or with it's nerfed no self use effect it doesn't compete any more with a future proper spell interupt? :)
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Re: Let's talk Support & Situational Skills

Postby Neptuno » Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:30 am

With the latest build, my biggest concern is Guarded by the Light. Self-healing is nice, but consuming Holy Power will be an issue most likely...

Vs Targeting dummy (with Divinity 3/3). 3pt WoG was about 4.5k for a premade prot pally (251 gear) without GbtL and 7.2 with (+/- a hundred as the spell says) and slightly better with kings (7.5k). I'm guessing my actual toon would get a 10k or maybe even 12k with raid buffs at 80.

The problem I see is how tight the Holy Power setup will be to self heal for a bubble and keep Holy Shield up 100%. A single deflect of HotR and you'll either be at 2pt healing or a loss of Holy Shield for a few seconds. Since the Holy Power isn't capable of double proc's that I've seen, expertise being the deciding factor in if my self absorb mechanic will be charged properly seems a little too RNG. Definitely a winner for prot pvp though as you have to take damage to make damage with the Vengeance mechanic (and who knows, maybe WoG has an AP component to it's base calculation).

I'm thinking it could be useful in Soul Reaper kind of moment where you know you're about to get hit hard, but I imagine whatever I come up with today will be adjusted in 37 more paladin talent revisions before Cata and then again at 85 once we see how much this heals for in T11.
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