Motorola's Droid iPad

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Re: Motorola's Droid iPad

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:27 pm

hoho wrote:Also, people that actually do own any later iThingy, try actually watching any of the HTML5 demos that are out there. You'll be surprised how awful support they have for the feature that is supposed to the way of the future.

which feature are you referring to exactly?
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Re: Motorola's Droid iPad

Postby thegreatheed » Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:00 pm

Fridmarr wrote:IPhone ... ... will continue to set the standard for consumer based smart phones for some time. The IPhone is an amazing device, and the IPhone OS is still a more refined and polished product than Android 2.2. I suspect Apple will keep an edge in stability for a long time, given the complete control over the hardware that Apple has. But just as it did for Apple in the PC world, that complete control also creates limits in market penetration, and it seems like it's only a matter of time before Android pushes to the front in that regard.

Fortunately for Apple, the openness of Android creates plenty of opportunity for the devices to play nice with each other, so hopefully the segregation that we had in the PC world won't be as drastic on these devices.


Sorry, but the iPhone is no longer setting the standard for consumer based smart phones. They offer no hardware advantage, and no software advantage that anyone older than 10 can't configure. There's a slight discrepancy in app store offerings, but those are few and far between. They still hold current market share, but Android sets are already outselling iOS sets. I agree that the iPhone will continue to offer a niche market of ease of use, stability and refined OS, just as Macs have controlled that niche for years. That is something Apple does and does very well. There is no reason to expect that market to diminish or go away. But the iPhone will not dominate and control the market, just as Macs don't dominate the PC market, and for very much the same reasons. The general market doesn't care as much about a refined OS experience as much as they care about availability, compatibility and price. This will drive the smartphone/tablet market to look similar to the PC market, maybe not as lopsided, since Apple has a great head start, but it will certainly mirror it.

Oh, and they gotta get a handle on their phone hardware. Despite Jobs' best efforts to explain it away, the iPhone 4 still drops more calls than iPhone 3GS, and dropped calls was a major complaint for the 3GS. Is that an AT&T fault? Well, we won't know, cause they're exclusive. But especially if Apple wants to make significant headway into Blackberry's domain of corporate smartphone excellence, they'll have to improve their phone.

BTW, iPod touch competitor is coming soon. Android 2.1, 8 gb of storage, wifi, bluetooth, touchscreen, camera, mic, etc etc. All for (maybe) 147$. Less than an iPod touch, and hopefully more expandable if it comes with an SD card slot as nearly all android devices do.

http://www.engadget.com/2010/08/04/andr ... pre-order/

Sammy has one coming as well, not many details on price.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12519_7-20012429-49.html

This type of device won't kill iPods, it probably won't even hurt iPod sales in the short term, but they show the versatility of Android. I've seen Android in tablets, netbooks, home phone base stations, even appliances (fridge/stove/microwave). It's a very versatile platform that will definitely have a large force on "smart" appliances, including phones and tablets, and probably a much stronger influence than iOS, due to it's versatility and availability.

Oh, and on the flash debate, HTML 5 is great, and probably the future. Flash is the way of the web now, and Apple is dumb to ignore it.
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Re: Motorola's Droid iPad

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:56 pm

thegreatheed wrote:Sorry, but the iPhone is no longer setting the standard for consumer based smart phones.
Well we'll probably end up having to agree to disagree but I'll lay my logic out there anyhow. I do think Android is close, but not quite there yet. Culturally it's definitely Apple, any new Android phone that comes out doesn't get compared to previous generations, it gets compared to the IPhone. Frequently applications are still targeting IPhone first and later bringing the Android side up to speed, if at all. That will change, but today, that's the environment.

From a hardware perspective, phones are pretty close. To me this one isn't quite as meaningful because the latest release cycle provides an edge that can change in a few months. However, the current IPhone is the equal of any Android phone in terms of CPU power and a bit better on the display, so I'd give IPhone a slight edge there.

The app side should not be marginalized in fact they may be the most important component. Eventually Android will catch up, but not all apps have been ported and not all that have offer the same user experience. Plus IPhone just has quite a few more, especially in the area of games.

Along with aftermarket software apps, you also need to look at hardware accessories and here, IPhone destroys and will likely continue to destroy Android phones. IPhone has an advantage here in that it's one hardware platform that can keep a similar form factor and inputs and outputs across versions. Android phones are all over the place and while Android will soon surpass the IPhone in total users, I doubt any one Android based phone is even close.

Now, I write apps for both platforms, I've been focusing exclusively on Android for the last few months. I prefer Android for lots of reasons (my personal phone is a 1st generation Droid), and especially because of the openness which I think we all benefit from. However, the platform is not as stable or as mature as the IPhone OS is yet and fragmentation is going to be an ongoing thorn.

Antennagate was a problem and one that hasn't gotten as much publicity is the rate at which the devices are breaking from falls. However, a simple case (which admittedly are hard to get at the moment) does fix both of those well enough. Network of course is an issue, but the vast majority of folks do get adequate coverage from AT&T.

There's nothing particularly moving that makes IPhones stand out from the Android offering anymore, but the IPhone is the reigning champ in my eyes, and the Android offering has yet to unseat it.
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Re: Motorola's Droid iPad

Postby thegreatheed » Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:05 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Well we'll probably end up having to agree to disagree but I'll lay my logic out there anyhow. I do think Android is close, but not quite there yet. Culturally it's definitely Apple, any new Android phone that comes out doesn't get compared to previous generations, it gets compared to the IPhone. Frequently applications are still targeting IPhone first and later bringing the Android side up to speed, if at all. That will change, but today, that's the environment.
Well, culturally doesn't exactly matter, other than to those inside that culture, IE, the Apple camp. That's not an insult, that's an observation about the culture. Many mainstream media outlets are biased heavily toward Apple, and their products, which shows by the absolute volume of press they get, which is proportionately larger than their market share.

From a hardware perspective, phones are pretty close. To me this one isn't quite as meaningful because the latest release cycle provides an edge that can change in a few months. However, the current IPhone is the equal of any Android phone in terms of CPU power and a bit better on the display, so I'd give IPhone a slight edge there.
The iPhone solely has a higher resolution. That is not better in all cases. The colors and contrast of the super AMOLED screens on the Galaxy S phones (i have one) are amazingly beautiful. Honestly, on a 4 inch screen, 800x480 is plenty of resolution, pixellation is extremely difficult to see, and simply more pixels don't increase picture quality nearly as much as the superior color hues in the super AMOLED. Of course, screen coloration is a fairly subjective measure, but in my mind, superior color > slightly higher resolution.

Also, Android devices are now pushing the hardware envelope. With dual core Android offerings due out this fall, with significant hardware advantages over the iPhone4, Apple is now on the catchup end of hardware. Not to mention, that just about every new smartphone release has higher camera resolution than the iPhone4, that's a significant minus to the hardware on the iPhone. We can agree to disagree, but Android in a month or two will have significantly better hardware offerings than Apple, and in my camp, that will be "setting the standard" for consumer smartphones, much more than iOS4. This in my opinion will be pushing the consumer smartphone market, not even mentioning the lack of 4g support. So as it stands now, the iPhone4 has a slight resolution advantage, and camera and 4g disadvantages. It has no overall hardware advantage at the moment, and according to my tally a slight disadvantage, as I don't rank a slight screen resolution as more important than camera sensors or 4g radio or superior screen color.

Something you left out of your app discussion is the fact that Android allows custom app installation, and iOS doesn't. Yep, the Apple app store has the current advantage over the Android store, but what about custom apps and 3rd party app stores, they exist, but barely anyone gives any credence to them in this discussion. App developers will go to where the market share is. As I pointed out, Android is now outselling iOS, so, the developers will come. Sure, that gives Apple a current advantage, but are they setting the standard anymore? I still contend they aren't. The standard will be set by the market, and the market is changing.

I'll handily concede the hardware accessory battle. But Android form factors include one universal thing that iPhone does not, micro-USB. This is more of a pet peeve than anything, but Apple insists on using their proprietary charging and docking cable, when it's outdated and far from industry standard. My beef on their charging cable is more an annoyance with Apple's culture of control and exclusivity than anything else. Apple insistence on no removable memory and no removable battery also annoy me silly. This is unnecessary control over your customers, and in my eyes, solely a way to rip more money away from your customers. Apple charges significantly more for a 32 gb phone than a 16 gb phone. Android devices have an SD slot, so users can carry multiple cards with tons of music, recorded video, or whatever else they wish, including 2nd batteries if they're a power user.

This discussion used to boil down to preference, but there's specific hardware disadvantages NOW, with significant disadvantages coming for Apple. They lost market control this latest quarter, which includes their mega release of the iPhone4. They are losing the battle, they were unseated this quarter. In the end, what matters most, who sells more devices or what company has faithful customers? Faithful customers are great, and will ensure a certain amount of corporate success, but a larger determination of corporate success will be market control. Any remaining influence in the market for Apple is purely momentum from their great start.

But this discussion is fun :)
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Re: Motorola's Droid iPad

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:35 pm

thegreatheed wrote:In the end, what matters most, who sells more devices or what company has faithful customers? Faithful customers are great, and will ensure a certain amount of corporate success, but a larger determination of corporate success will be market control. Any remaining influence in the market for Apple is purely momentum from their great start.

But this discussion is fun :)

Well I won't argue what you've said, because we could go round and round, and I think Apple's days are numbered making it moot soon enough anyhow.

However to the comment I quoted... I've never actually looked at the numbers broken down by manufacturer, but given that the bulk of US Android phones are a conglomerate of Motorola, HTC, LG, Samsung etc... my guess is that no manufacturer is even close to threatening Apple in terms of the total Android phones sold compared to IPhones? Granted those other manufacturers also sell non Android phones and then there is RIM.
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Re: Motorola's Droid iPad

Postby Tenaka » Sat Aug 07, 2010 7:32 am

Fridmarr wrote:I've never actually looked at the numbers broken down by manufacturer, but given that the bulk of US Android phones are a conglomerate of Motorola, HTC, LG, Samsung etc... my guess is that no manufacturer is even close to threatening Apple in terms of the total Android phones sold compared to IPhones? Granted those other manufacturers also sell non Android phones and then there is RIM.


But why do Apple defendants feel the need to point out the different manufacturers for Android when the comparison they are arguing against is the iPhone vs Android, NOT Apple vs *insert manufacture here*

The only reason there is a single manufacturer for the iPhone is that they chose to be that way. A tad unfair to then play the number of manufacturers involved card imo.

That said on the what iPhone supports (i.e the whole Flash argument) point, Apple could end the argument once and for all by simply saying "It's my phone so I'll do what I want with it". Of course that wouldn't seem like good business sense. I would think more of Apple if they did though.
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Re: Motorola's Droid iPad

Postby hoho » Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:16 am

Sabindeus wrote:which feature are you referring to exactly?
HTML5.
Feel free to test stuff here: http://html5demos.com/
Fridmarr wrote:IPhone has an advantage here in that it's one hardware platform that can keep a similar form factor and inputs and outputs across versions.
What kind of inputs-outputs are there that change? Size has changed quite a bit between different iphone versions. Headphone jack is most likely standard everywhere. Only thing I can think of is charger.
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Re: Motorola's Droid iPad

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:31 am

Tenaka wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I've never actually looked at the numbers broken down by manufacturer, but given that the bulk of US Android phones are a conglomerate of Motorola, HTC, LG, Samsung etc... my guess is that no manufacturer is even close to threatening Apple in terms of the total Android phones sold compared to IPhones? Granted those other manufacturers also sell non Android phones and then there is RIM.


But why do Apple defendants feel the need to point out the different manufacturers for Android when the comparison they are arguing against is the iPhone vs Android, NOT Apple vs *insert manufacture here*

The only reason there is a single manufacturer for the iPhone is that they chose to be that way. A tad unfair to then play the number of manufacturers involved card imo.

That said on the what iPhone supports (i.e the whole Flash argument) point, Apple could end the argument once and for all by simply saying "It's my phone so I'll do what I want with it". Of course that wouldn't seem like good business sense. I would think more of Apple if they did though.

Well I'm neither an Apple nor Android defendant. Since both of these phones are part of how I make a living, staying objective on the matter is important. That said, I was just responding with a question to a specific point that was made.

Apple has complete control over every piece of software that can be loaded without violating the terms of service, and now they also control what tools/languages create that software. While they've never came out and said that, their policies are pretty obvious.
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Re: Motorola's Droid iPad

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:41 am

hoho wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:which feature are you referring to exactly?
HTML5.
Feel free to test stuff here: http://html5demos.com/
Fridmarr wrote:IPhone has an advantage here in that it's one hardware platform that can keep a similar form factor and inputs and outputs across versions.
What kind of inputs-outputs are there that change? Size has changed quite a bit between different iphone versions. Headphone jack is most likely standard everywhere. Only thing I can think of is charger.

Well the form factor is really enough to deter a large third party accessory market, but there some differences in outputs as well. I know the Galaxy has an HDMI output for instance. Also different camera styles and locations matter for some of these accessories too.
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Re: Motorola's Droid iPad

Postby hoho » Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:46 am

Fridmarr wrote:Well the form factor is really enough to deter a large third party accessory market, but there some differences in outputs as well. I know the Galaxy has an HDMI output for instance. Also different camera styles and locations matter for some of these accessories too.
Yea, form factor and camera positions most definitely are important but unless I'm mistaken all that has changed with every iphone version.

As for HDMI, is it the only output or does it also have the other usual stuff? If it's a bonus I see nothing bad about it. It's just a nice little bonus to have. Of course it would be awesome if everyone would have it but if it is liked by players it will be added to other phones as well.
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Re: Motorola's Droid iPad

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:58 am

hoho wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Well the form factor is really enough to deter a large third party accessory market, but there some differences in outputs as well. I know the Galaxy has an HDMI output for instance. Also different camera styles and locations matter for some of these accessories too.
Yea, form factor and camera positions most definitely are important but unless I'm mistaken all that has changed with every iphone version.

As for HDMI, is it the only output or does it also have the other usual stuff? If it's a bonus I see nothing bad about it. It's just a nice little bonus to have. Of course it would be awesome if everyone would have it but if it is liked by players it will be added to other phones as well.


Well the IPhone docks and devices have been able to be kind of universal across versions, and also with a lot of the IPods (IPod touch) too. With Android it moves all around, even the charging location in addition to whatever else they add. Personally I wouldn't mind if they came up with a minimal standard, but then that constrains design quite a bit.

As far as I know, it's just an HDMI output.
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Re: Motorola's Droid iPad

Postby thegreatheed » Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:41 pm

What Fridmarr is talking about is the docking/charging/sync connector which is centered/bottom on the iPhone/iPad. This allows docking stations (for home audio equipment) or clock radio type charging stations to be compatible with iphone/ipod touch, and some ipods. This compatibility isn't universal though, and no one dock/cable/charger is compatible with the whole iDevice line. There's still fragmentation here, which limits the diversity of 3rd party accessories, but it's still way more developed than Android. But that said, micro usb makes Android remarkably easier to interface with than Apple's proprietary system. Honestly, many car radios and home stereo equipment are already 100% compatible with Android, as it can make a device imitate usb storage, in which case, many many audio systems are already Android compliant. What you won't get with Android is standup docks/chargers, but the connectivity is more than possible.

Oh, and the EVO 4g has the mini HDMI out, not the galaxy s. The galaxy s does do a/v out through it's 3.5 mm headphone connector though. Again, industry standard compliant video out vs proprietary.
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Re: Motorola's Droid iPad

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:57 pm

Android still has some bluetooth work to do too. Froyo finally added voice dialing but it's buggy as shit, if it even works at all. It's part of the reason Verizon had to pause Froyo deployment, and are upping the build.

As that becomes more mature though, form factor becomes irrelevant and many third party accessories can be made compatible for both types of phones.
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Re: Motorola's Droid iPad

Postby Melathys » Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:01 pm

I was talking with my brother along these lines of iphone vs android

Marketing is a big factor. Apple gets to advertise iphone, whereas andoid gets only passing mention. ie "Droid!! ... running andoid". Kinda like PCs. You don't see HP or dell talking about win7 the whole commercial, the os gets a lil blurb at the end.
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Re: Motorola's Droid iPad

Postby Garov » Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:30 pm

Flex wrote:If AT&T ever gives the go ahead for video chat over 3G every iPhone 4 is a simply one button push away from a video phone.

I used to work in the cellphone industry so I have to jump in here on this comment. There is no way AT&T can even dream of this right now with their current network. iPhones are devouring large chunks of AT&T's network usage as it is in major cities. There is no way they could support voice chat over every 3g phone. To AT&T's credit they are improving their network. But there's no possible way they will announce anytime soon video chat for everyone. And when/if they do, you can bet the data plans that support that type of usage will be enormous.
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