BC raid tank, haven't played in 2 years, just hit 80

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BC raid tank, haven't played in 2 years, just hit 80

Postby Brauun » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:54 am

WotLK newbie question here. I used to be a BC raid tank. Cleared up to Illidan, barely scratched Sunwell. Played the WotLK beta, so I'm familiar with the basic tanking concepts of the expansion, as well as with the 969 rotation (which I've practiced extensively in low-level dungeons and on training dummies). I haven't played in nearly 2 years though. Also, I lent my toon to my brother who leveled him as Ret and vendored all my BC tanking gear, so now I'm stuck with really shitty gear which I'm in the process of upgrading following guides I've found on this still awesome website.

I'm writing this because I'd like to start tanking heroics ASAP. Problem is, I feel like a total newbie right now and don't feel like being responsible for perpetual group wipes. What can I expect from an heroic run? Are they a lot harder than their regular counterparts? Is gear and incredibly important factor at this stage? What about 10-man reg. Naxx?

BTW, what's a nice entry-level heroic? Something to get me familiar with the amount of damage I'll take and TPS I should output.

Thanks.
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Re: BC raid tank, haven't played in 2 years, just hit 80

Postby Gamingdevil » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:20 am

Just get to crit immunity and you'll be fine in most heroics, bar ToC and the ICC heroics (which you won't be able to enter at that gear level anyway).

People will piss all over you when you have low hp, but just ignore it and tank that shit!

Most heroics vary little to nothing compared to their regular counterpart apart from the obvious fact that stuff hits harder.

I wish you good fortune on entering Naxx10, no one runs that place at all any more.
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Re: BC raid tank, haven't played in 2 years, just hit 80

Postby Shoju » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:52 am

Starting as a fresh 80, with limited or limitless funds becomes the bigger question. with limitless funds, you could get

Crafted Helm - quickly replaced, but a good enough piece to start with
Crafted neck - again quickly replaced, but good enough to start with
BoE Shoulders - probably cheap, will be replaced, but would be a starter piece
BOE Cloak - Hard to find, will last for a while.
crafted chest - will last you a long time
crafted bracers - will last you a long time
crafted belt - will last you a long time
crafted pants - will last you the entire expac.
crafted boots - 2 different. one will last for a while, one you could theoretically never replace.
Crafted ring - quickly replaced
BoE tank ring - 5 of them. hard to find, but they will all last for a little while.
Crafted shield - easily replaced
BoE shield - will last until you get into ToC or ICC

You could easily drop 30+K gold to get all of this, and be crit immune while wearing tank gemmed enchanted ret gear to fill in the slots.

Starting out, trinkets will be a pain in the rear, but you can get moving on some stuff fairly easily.

This is a BoE paladin tank. Is he ready for ICC? probably not, but you are going to be able to do every single heroic, and within a day or two, you can go from what is here, to ICC if you chain run heroics. The only truly terrible slots in the gear are the trinkets, and then the gloves.
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Re: BC raid tank, haven't played in 2 years, just hit 80

Postby Koatanga » Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:01 pm

WotLK is far different from BC in that you have opportunity to get sufficient gear to tank current content without stepping foot in a raid.

There are plenty of drops in the ToC and ICC 5-mans, plus you get some really nice gear from badges.

When ICC was new (no 30% buff), tanks were doing it in tier 9 gear. Tier 9 gear is easily obtainable from running heroics, via emblems. Because you get instant dungeons as a tank, you can get geared in no time.

There will be people who kick tanks who are "undergeared" for heroics. Your best bet to prevent that is to get your gearscore up and stack stamina. It sucks, but that's life these days. The good news is that since the 30% buff in ICC only boosts your health (as far as defensive stats go), stam-stacking is good for you anyway.

Now for the bad news: There are few openings for tanks for ICC raiding, and even fewer for undergeared tanks. gearscore snobbery is all the rage, and few PuGs want tanks who are not overgeared. Guilds will probably be full-up on tanks, since they have to sit tanks in their 25s anyway (even with 2 10-mans feeding a 25-man raid group, one of the 4 tanks will have to be hybrid tank/DPS, while another is completely redundant, because you only need 2 tanks for most ICC encounters).
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Re: BC raid tank, haven't played in 2 years, just hit 80

Postby Brauun » Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:59 pm

First off, thanks for the replies. If the situation of raid tanks in WotLK is not different than that of tanks in BC, I'll just stay away from raids and maybe even guilds altogether. I worked so hard to get a main-tanking spot in a progression guild in BC, and being this late into the expansion, I don't see why I'd try to get one once again, knowing the efforts it implies. I'll jump on the raid wagon when Cataclysm comes out. I just wanna get back into the game before the expansion and aggro rooms of mobs while looking at my health bar do the yoyo.

So from what I hear, once I achieve uncrittable status with decent HP I'd be ready for just about any heroic instance. What's an ICC heroic though? I know ICC is Icecrown Citadel, so ICC heroics would be heroic dungeons which came out with the patch? I yet have to look at the full list of dungeons, learn them and their acronyms.

And thanks a lot on those gear suggestions, I'll make sure to look into them. Only problem is, right now, I have about 600g. Since I was an engineer I crafted the goggles, but comparing them to other items they clearly suck. I also crafted two of those +81 stamina engineering trinkets. Next up I was thinking about filling my weak blues spots with pieces of Tempered Saronite, get the Titansteel Shield Wall crafted and get the Teldrassil Protector from one of the 1 million available badges type (another thing I yet have to look into thoroughly).
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Re: BC raid tank, haven't played in 2 years, just hit 80

Postby Koatanga » Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:14 pm

Forge of Souls, Pit of Saron, and Halls of Reflection are the ICC heroics. They are more difficult than the other heroics. They drop epic gear in both normal and heroic modes.

You have to attune yourself by doing them in the order I listed them. Heroic Halls of Reflection can be really tough with an inexperienced and/or undergeared tank or healer. An undergeared tank and inexperienced healer is pretty much a disaster in there.

Be on the lookout for DPS rolling on tank gear - it happens all the time these days. Nothing you can do about it, but be aware that it will happen.
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Re: BC raid tank, haven't played in 2 years, just hit 80

Postby econ21 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:31 am

I stopped playing for a year between BC and WotLK. The bad news is, your gear is far below the norm. The good news is, you can quickly upgrade it to be good enough for ICC by just farming heroics and gold.

I would rethink your idea of foreswearing a guild. You don't need one to farm, but once you have exhausted that, I would recommend joining a smallish 10 man guild that regularly runs ICC and is recruiting tanks. It will vary by server, but I think you should be able to find such a thing. As a "Yappo failsafe" tank, you will be more than geared for ICC. And with the distractions of summer, and the stage of the expansion cycle, you may find those still playing WoW want to recruit tanks to keep going. With Cataclysm coming out soonish, it will be good for you to be well positioned in a fun active guild.

Brauun wrote:What can I expect from an heroic run?


They are nothing like the challenge of BC heroics in terms of knowing the pulls and appropriate CC. It's usually just a matter of charging into action and everyone AOEing or nuking. However, this is sometimes because groups overgear them - if they don't, they may have to respect the appropriate tactics. Groups will vary a lot. Read Barathorn's experiences in the gear section on gearing up a new level 80 tank for some examples.

Are they a lot harder than their regular counterparts?


It depends on the level of the regular (obviously there are big step ups in the lower level instances; the level 80 ones change less). Typically, they just hit harder so require better gear.

Is gear and incredibly important factor at this stage?


Yes. In blue gear, heroics are appropriately challenging. So every early gear upgrade you can get as a tank will be a big deal. But you will quickly outgear them from emblem gear - Yappo's failsafe guide lays this out. Your first 20 or so heroics will be tough, then it will be easy.

What about 10-man reg. Naxx?


Few people run this. It's typically heroics, the weekly raid, VoA10 and 25 then ICC when you are ready. You may be able to do the weekly raid and VoA sooner than you think if you try to join them near the reset. Or just form your own PUG.

BTW, what's a nice entry-level heroic? Something to get me familiar with the amount of damage I'll take and TPS I should output.


I think Violet Hold may be the best training ground. Short, with a variety of pulls. The other "easier" ones, IMO, are Utgarde Keep, the Nexus, Draktharon Keep, Stratholme and Azjol-Nerub.
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Re: BC raid tank, haven't played in 2 years, just hit 80

Postby Blackharon » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:07 am

econ21 wrote:I think Violet Hold may be the best training ground. Short, with a variety of pulls. The other "easier" ones, IMO, are Utgarde Keep, the Nexus, Draktharon Keep, Stratholme and Azjol-Nerub.

I agree with all of this - except AN. AN used to be a PITA until you had the gear to survive the blinds in the pulls before the first boss.

Though - with that BoE pally gear you probably wouldn't have to worry about the blinds too much.
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Re: BC raid tank, haven't played in 2 years, just hit 80

Postby Chasey » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:33 am

H-UK is a breez to IMO.
And yes to echo what others have said, gear falls at you at this point in the game. Its silly how easy it is to start from scratch and be face rolling heroics in 15 minutes.
Best of luck, don't let the GOGOGOGO crew push you to fast and learn the pally rotation before it changes. :D
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Re: BC raid tank, haven't played in 2 years, just hit 80

Postby Brauun » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:05 am

Once again, thanks a lot on those replies.

I think I can say I'm now back in the tanking business! I've abused regular mode Forge of Souls, Pit of Saron and Halls of Reflection and looted myself some nice entry-level epics, and a bunch of badges I used to buy gear. I'm nearing 540 defense but I'm poor, I'm missing a lot of enchant and gems (here's a link to my armory, keep in mind I dinged 80 5 days ago: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... &r=Garrosh).

I have yet to enter an heroic, but I can say I'm pretty proud I haven't caused a single wipe yet. I get the usual "22.5k HP MT we're all gonna die" message at the beginning of dungeons, generaly replaced by "thank you good run" afterwards. I've struggled here and there for TPS but all in all, it was fine. I guess tanking's like biking, you just have to practice a bit and it comes right to you. I've found a 969 rotation for single-targets and multi-targets (I was struggling against multi-target at first), etc, everything seems to be going good and a lot less stressful than I thought it'd be.

Also, WTF! I've looted myself an ugly spinning lollipop in Forge of Souls! Crap, this feels like Mount Hyjal all over again, lol.

I'm gonna keep running a bit of regular mode Forge of Souls (man, you can clear this in 15 min. easy), get myself a couple more badges, hope the pants drop (and that a DPS warrior won't need/win them for the 4th time!) and get myself into a Violet Hold heroic.

Thanks again with the tips, much appreciated!
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Re: BC raid tank, haven't played in 2 years, just hit 80

Postby ginga-uk » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:06 am

Things to watch out for...i.e. the few things that might actually kill you if you're not careful). Everything else is just stuff hitting you or casting spells at you.

UK:- The first few (8-10) mobs can stun you. If you're lowish on hp, then pulling both packs + pats at the same time is probably a bad idea despite the dps encouraging you to do so with their gogogooggo comments.

Strafe or Run through the last boss for the smash. Whilst you *could* eat the hit these days, it's still best not to.

Old Kingdom:- Shadowcasters (Spellflingers do a 6sec cast spell that hits for 80% of your hp) - Skull on these and only pull one at a time... They are undead, so you can interrupt one twice if you really need to. Amazing how few people understand that 80% + 80% = dead tank even if in full ICC 25 gear, and will pull extra packs for you whilst AOEing down everything, and ignoring casts.

Nexus:- The guys in the ice tunnel bit might fear you (and your party), so either pull back or be ready to grab the next couple pulls...
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Azjol Nerub. - Skirmishers will go after someone else randomly after about 5 seconds... won't kill you, but might kill your healer, so get them burnt down first.

ToC (5):-

The priestess' in the trash packs before the second boss can mind control. Always good for a laugh, so kill them first.

Forge of Souls:- Trash packs here are a pain in the arse... that might just be for me though. Spaced out casters etc...

Halls of Reflection:- Set a kill order, and get the dps to single target mobs down in order. I usually state Priest -> Merc -> rest before the first wave, and I still mark skull as a reminder. If I'm lucky the dps kill skull first. :)
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Re: BC raid tank, haven't played in 2 years, just hit 80

Postby econ21 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:18 am

Brauun wrote:I've abused regular mode Forge of Souls, Pit of Saron and Halls of Reflection ...


Congrats! Two days to get up to speed - that was quick! If you can do normal HoR, I reckon you can do any pre-ICC5 heroic. They are easier.

(I was struggling against multi-target at first),


You have not talented Seal of command. Do so and use it for all heroics (and I would say raid trash too). It is so good for AOE, they are taking it away from us in Cat.

BTW: more generally, your spec could be tweaked. Read Theck's sticky on talents. I don't think you need divinity and think vindication (debuffs bosses) and pursuit of justice are almost mandatory, they are so useful.
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Re: BC raid tank, haven't played in 2 years, just hit 80

Postby Brauun » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:19 am

Ginga-uk wrote:Forge of Souls:- Trash packs here are a pain in the arse... that might just be for me though. Spaced out casters etc...


Yeah, I'm struggling there (although in normal mode) on a couple of pulls. Spread out casters are a pain, I haven't found the tweak yet I guess. And doing a LoS pull with a pug seems to be an impossibility (even when you tell them you'll do it). When there's Soul Horrors involved I tend to mark them with a Skull, but wtf am I supposed to do when they teleport all over the place? I just run at them, keeping aggro, but is there a more efficient way to hold them?
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Re: BC raid tank, haven't played in 2 years, just hit 80

Postby Brauun » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:22 am

econ21 wrote:
Brauun wrote:BTW: more generally, your spec could be tweaked. Read Theck's sticky on talents. I don't think you need divinity and think vindication (debuffs bosses) and pursuit of justice are almost mandatory, they are so useful.


Yes thanks. I've followed my guts for my spec, and realized afterwards that my spec wasn't as best as it could be, more notably Divinity which sucks hard. However I'm poor, very poor, and working towards getting 1k g to buy dual-spec talent. And OMG, they've changed SoC! You're right, this looks nice for AoE tanking now, I hadn't read the description!
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Re: BC raid tank, haven't played in 2 years, just hit 80

Postby econ21 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:49 am

Brauun wrote:
Ginga-uk wrote:Spread out casters are a pain, I haven't found the tweak yet I guess. ...I just run at them, keeping aggro, but is there a more efficient way to hold them?


I find the FoS trash pulls hectic at the best of times, but in a fun way. Two things help though:

(1) Don't pull with avenger shield (unlike BC heroics with their shield plus CC pulls, in Wotlk, you pull by HoRec and charging in, for the most part). Instead, save it for the most far out caster and use it to draw them in to your AOE once you have things going.

(2) Use Holy Wrath on cooldown. It gives snap AOE aggro and also buys you time with the stun. Almost everything in the ICC5 mans is undead (switch on sense undead and use the minor glyph).
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