[10/25] Ruby Sanctum - Halion

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Re: [10/25] Ruby Sanctum - Halion

Postby Argali » Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:18 pm

NeoArmada wrote:On a random note:

Does anyone else love this fight as much as I do???

For the first time the tanks are allowed to scream at the DPS for being retarded! In my opinion this is the first fight where all classes have to be equally aware in order to complete tghe fight where in most encounters the pressure falls on 1 or 2 groups instead of all three. I love watching a pug group die when the tank starts to rotate Halion in the Shadow Realm and the DPS doesnt move with him and they get 1 shotted by Shadow beam. First fight to my knowledge where 25 man is easier than 10 man lol


Eh, we needed a reason before?
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Re: [10/25] Ruby Sanctum - Halion

Postby Arianne » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:07 am

On 25 heroic we keep having the tank in the shadow realm die (Blood DK), particularly during cutter and usually going from full to dead in 2s or less (without any appreciable parry hasting that we can see). Our DK is rotating cooldowns every cutter, so I'm not sure if anyone else has any suggestions that might help. We usually run druid, shaman, holy priest, and either holy pally or resto druid in the shadow realm.

How do you get your DPS to not grab aggro on the little adds in phase 3 fire realm? We have a warrior tanking the embers and we've mostly enforced that they not start with huge AoE, but invariably 2-3 of the DPS (usually a warlock, a frost DK and a fire mage) pull aggro and when that happens someone dies (either me, the DPS, the person who had to run out for consumption, or one of the healers).
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Re: [10/25] Ruby Sanctum - Halion

Postby Treck » Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:38 pm

Make sure the Tank in the shadow realm has a CD each and every time.
Holypriests can help out with the CDs, the paladin should be able to help aswell, but DKs have some themselves.
4 healers downstairs should be able to keep the tank up (make sure the CDs are up each time)

And for the small adds, dpsers outside usually rotates between living inferno -> small adds -> halion, without to much focus on the small adds. We also run a rogue with tricks onto the add tank, to make sure healers dont get the adds on them.
Right about the time the corperality goes down to 40%, the new fire elemental wave spawns, and usually when the small adds are beeing targeted corperality hits 60%, and people goes back to Halion, makes a pretty solid rotation.
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Re: [10/25] Ruby Sanctum - Halion

Postby Sitar » Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:19 am

Some of the DK cooldowns may not be enough to handle the hits he can take during the P3 cutter, see with your healers what you can do.

For the fire phase, we have 3 rogues so it's kind of easy but what we do as follow :

Wave spawn, MT takes the add helped with a hunter redirect, all casters DPS dots and hit on him while the melee DPS stay on halion, when the war tank calls for AOE, everyone but 2 people who stays on the inferno switch from the boss/inferno to the little adds. They die very quickly, and everyone goes back to halion or the inferno if needed.
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Re: [10/25] Ruby Sanctum - Halion

Postby Cheddar » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:41 am

If you've got a DK tanking the shadow realm make sure there is someone else keeping an attack power debuff up.
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Re: [10/25] Ruby Sanctum - Halion

Postby Treck » Thu Jul 29, 2010 4:20 am

Sitar wrote:Some of the DK cooldowns may not be enough to handle the hits he can take during the P3 cutter, see with your healers what you can do.

Ive found using something as "weak" as trinkets to be enough to keep you alive during a rotation (Faction champ trinket+Sindri)
Given a DK with the same trinkets, then rotating Icebound -> Vamp Blood -> trinkets (beeing ready with rune tap/goul sacrifice) -> Vamp blood -> Icebound etc should be more than enough.
While for a paladin, ofc Shieldwall is strong, but also DG is more than enough (altho its only for 6 sec, so make sure its timed good) and trinkets should save you aswell (try putting in DP 4xt10 if you got that during the "bad" CDs like DG/trinkets.
And ofc the 4th one in the rotation should prolly be an external.
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Re: [10/25] Ruby Sanctum - Halion

Postby sculder » Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:19 am

I've been having a lot of issues with parry hasting and/or extremely hard hits during p2/3 (heroic 25). I've tried multiple gearsets but I most often ran with an armor heavy set, using pillars and the bracers (and tier chest/gloves). My trinkets are my weak point, having swapped from holy to prot a month or two back, dusting off my old TOC level prot set. I have the skeleton key, and black heart for EH, and even went so far as to use H corpse tongue coin for a few attempts.

What it came down to was this: Buffed (w/out pot) I was around 40k armor, so at times during p2/3 I would have almost 50k armor, while sustaining just under 60k hp. My tank stats are slightly under a full bis tank for sure, but still more than enough for all icc heroics and halion. Early into p2, usually 10-15 seconds after the raid phased in, I would get hit with 2 melee attacks and a breath within just over a second, causing AD to go off early. At times, the regular melee swings would be hitting me for 40-50k, while most were well under 30.

I read a while back that there were a lot of bugs with Halion hitting for enraged damage, and parry hasting due to the raid not technically being behind him, but are any of these "bugs" confirmed and/or fixable? I've tried every gearset, spec, and cd rotation I can think of, but the only thing that seemed to help was RNG.
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Re: [10/25] Ruby Sanctum - Halion

Postby inthedrops » Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:39 am

We finally got our first kill last night. I tanked downstairs. I used Divine Shield during the transition. Wings will be available just before first cutter, so I pop that. By then my threat is really strong due to rogue tricks. So my second cooldown is usually glyphed salvation. Then Divine Guardian. For external cooldowns I ask for Guardian Spirit. I pop Sindy trinket when he casts a Flame Breath with GS to avoid wasting GS or AD procs.

The only other tip I figured out while tanking this, is to use cooldowns PREEMPTIVEY when halion is at 50% corp. Chain them (via requesting an extra cooldown from our Ret Paladin) if he gets stuck at 60% corp or higher (70% shouldn't happen but sometimes does). And finally but most important, use them REACTIVELY if at 40% corp (Or use trinkets only for example). This greatly extends your cooldown options when he's at 60% or if a healer has Soul Corruption.

Last thing I did was tried my best to keep myself as close to the left orb as possible to help prevent parries from melee (raid are all on the dragons left side).
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Re: [10/25] Ruby Sanctum - Halion

Postby Meloree » Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:04 am

sculder wrote:I've been having a lot of issues with parry hasting and/or extremely hard hits during p2/3 (heroic 25). I've tried multiple gearsets but I most often ran with an armor heavy set, using pillars and the bracers (and tier chest/gloves). My trinkets are my weak point, having swapped from holy to prot a month or two back, dusting off my old TOC level prot set. I have the skeleton key, and black heart for EH, and even went so far as to use H corpse tongue coin for a few attempts.

What it came down to was this: Buffed (w/out pot) I was around 40k armor, so at times during p2/3 I would have almost 50k armor, while sustaining just under 60k hp. My tank stats are slightly under a full bis tank for sure, but still more than enough for all icc heroics and halion. Early into p2, usually 10-15 seconds after the raid phased in, I would get hit with 2 melee attacks and a breath within just over a second, causing AD to go off early. At times, the regular melee swings would be hitting me for 40-50k, while most were well under 30.

I read a while back that there were a lot of bugs with Halion hitting for enraged damage, and parry hasting due to the raid not technically being behind him, but are any of these "bugs" confirmed and/or fixable? I've tried every gearset, spec, and cd rotation I can think of, but the only thing that seemed to help was RNG.


We've had basically no tank-death issues in fire-realm. I wear essentially my LK gearset (heavy on stamina and avoidance and hit) - with a 0/59/12 spec (vindication and 5/5 divinity). During P2 I stay out, as does a Holy Paladin. This is more than sufficient to keep me alive until the raid shows up. At the start of P3, I pop Divine Plea (4pc) and armor pot, which lowers the damage a bit, and every time a large fire elemental add spawns I pop either trinket (Sindy's fang, reduces fire elemental damage by a ton), or Divine Plea (12% more avoidance). During P3, I toss AS at the large add, and flip back to Halion until I get a new Vindication proc. As soon as Vindication is reset, I pour threat into the large fire add for ~6 seconds, then pop back to Halion until Vindication re-procs. Keeping Vindication up on Halion fulltime will keep you from ever seeing those 50k hits, just maintain the debuff. Major cooldowns (Salv, DG, DP) I use reactively as needed.

I never really thought of fire-realm as particularily hard on the tanks. Twilight is a bit rough, because your healers can't stand and channel fulltime, but our feral has a pretty healthy array of cooldowns to use during cutter (barkskin, 4pc, SI, trinkets, ret paladin's bosac, holy paladin bosac, holy priest wings), and the fury warrior is actually up there with commanding shout - fire has to live without for us. Almost all of our tank-deaths have been in twilight, but it wasn't a problem that lasted more than a couple of pulls. We heal twilight with a resto druid (hots and swiftmend), a holy priest (hots and CoH and PoM and GS, but most importantly, Body and Soul), and a Holy Paladin (2nd Freedom, DSac, BoSac, Aura Mastery, and pretty decent throughput even on the move, with 1.1s Holy Lights). It's very manageable. Parry-haste isn't much of an issue, if your melee pay attention. Standard Dragon Positioning should be ingrained in the brain by now.
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Re: [10/25] Ruby Sanctum - Halion

Postby sculder » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:41 pm

forgot to mention I'm tanking shadow :)

I also switched to my lk spec for all the attempts, with AM and glyphed salv. I guess the factor I didn't put enough importance on is the corporeality, but I'm still amazed at the parry hasting
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Re: [10/25] Ruby Sanctum - Halion

Postby inthedrops » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:52 pm

sculder wrote:forgot to mention I'm tanking shadow :)

I also switched to my lk spec for all the attempts, with AM and glyphed salv. I guess the factor I didn't put enough importance on is the corporeality, but I'm still amazed at the parry hasting


I don't normally tank downstairs, I've usually been doing the adds or boss upstairs. We have a Druid normally doing downstairs. We had a lot of issues with Parries the last night we were in there with the Druid tanking below. And the raid tried to find ways to adjust.

When I went in last night, parries were not an issue at all. Melee wasn't doing them.

I got a few whispers asking me what I did different that the other tank. And I honestly don't think I did anything different. I gave the other tank the same advice that I used myself yesterday.

I'm actually starting to think that other factors such as LAG might be involved. I just don't see our melee going from crap to perfect from one raid to the next.

Just keep hugging that orb to your left when rotating and keep yelling at the melee if you seethem too far towards the dragon head and the problem should go away.
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Re: [10/25] Ruby Sanctum - Halion

Postby inthedrops » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:21 pm

Someone was nice enough to fraps our first kill. It's PoV is from a paladin healer downstairs. But what's nice is that his grid buttons are large so it's easy to see my health (group 1) and I'm also in view most of the time. In P1 I just dps'd a bit and helped on adds. I applied all the advice I suggested above....not that you can see me really doing it :P

http://www.youtube.com/user/qwiksillva

Forgot to mention, it's 25 heroic.
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Re: [10/25] Ruby Sanctum - Halion

Postby sculder » Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:23 pm

Yeah the damage seems quite bursty regardless of which gearset I used... I guess the thing that's making the difference is balancing our corporeality more effectively to make sure i don't get caught with only a minor cd up.
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Re: [10/25] Ruby Sanctum - Halion

Postby baff » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:51 pm

Long time reader, first time posting. Came out kind of long - but please read.

My guild is working on 25 hm, while trying to overcome the summer boss :D. I've been assigned the task of tanking the embers in p1 and p3. But, for some reason, my GM doesn't want to use a rogue to help tricks them to me. The problem is specifically in p3. While some attempts have been just fine, allowing us to get the boss down to the 20% plus zone, it feels to me like my ability to get snap aggro is not strong enough.

I'll get into some more detail. We have all the healers and ranged dps in the fire realm. They all stack for meteor. Then, once meteor lands, we all move as a group. The living Inferno is MDed to the halion tank. Once the trails of fire spawn, the group might split up a bit, but even if it doesn't - at times the embers will go straight for a healer and own them. To clarify even a bit more - I have my consecrate down, I RF off one of the healers (who has aggro), I use AS on a bunch of adds that are not heading my way, I also taunt one if needed. But still, once in a while a healer gets owned.

I have gone over about 10 kill logs - they all have a rogue using tricks on the add tank. I realize this is the easiest solution for this specific problem. But, as I mentioned, GM doesn't want to do it (and is basically blaming me for bad game play at picking up the adds).

So - am I missing something? Once I have aggro on them, its fine (except for damn starfall).

Also, a few more questions for the players from guilds who have killed it:
- How do guilds deal with the ember/living inferno combo? split dps? burn living inferno then embers? burn embers first?
- Which healing setup are you using in the fire realm. It feels like there is no damage for a while, and then there comes a burst (when adds spawn).
- When tanking the adds, I can use sind trinket, DP, but that's pretty much it. Salv feels dangerous, and DG is only 6 secs long (and I'm always scared to use it). The healer's CDs are going to the MT who is a warrior. Any ideas what can help?
- How many waves of adds are you seeing in phase 1? is pushing in two waves really important?
- How many waves are you seeing in phase 3?
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Re: [10/25] Ruby Sanctum - Halion

Postby inthedrops » Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:49 pm

I'm sure there is a reason you GM wants to use tricks for other things. But the mistake is in thinking that you will be able to pick up all of the adds instantly without it. That's just not going to consistently happen, it's a bad assumption. Consecrate ticks aren't "instant" there is delay in between each tick, and that's all it's going to take for a healer to get owned. There's no chance in hell you'll always get them all every time without tricks. If a healer is standing in a bad spot, bam, dead. Not your fault at all. And people have to move, so they'll never be in a perfect spot.

Tricks should be used on you. Whatever the reason the GM has not to, he/she should recognize that it IS causing healer deaths without and just use it!

And yes, DPS is very tight for this fight. I agree with your GM about two sets of adds before P2. We found for us, that if we get a third set we won't make enrage, period. On the kill video I posted, we had about 30 seconds before enrage but also had a perfect balance between up and downstairs so never had to slow down on either side. Notice that we even use Heroism in P1 in order to only get two sets of adds. Our DPS is not very strong compared to similar guilds. We tend to always have to get by on execution over brute force.

Regarding dps of the adds, you want the minimum amount of dps on the big add so it dies before the next one is on the tank, and only as much AoE dps as is necessary for the adds to die shortly after the next wave starting being tanked. This means that many people stay single target on Halion. Unfortunately I don't know the exact mix we use.

Some tips. In Phase 1, don't spend any time AoE'ing the small adds. Just let them take whatever cleave damage they take. Then when the second set spawns blow them all up together. This will help get to P2 quicker.

Also, have your add tank wear a bit of DPS gear. When I was tanking the adds in some of our attempts I was doing about 8k dps on them. Every little bit helps in P3. This includes using SoComm and Hammer Glyph.

I'm a little disturbed by the apparent stubborness of not allowing you a tricks for each add wave. I'm really curious what the reason is for that.
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