A new way to challenge tanks?

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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Yelena » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:44 am

Arjuna wrote:1st boss was: stand still and taunt off each other, then stand still or kite, and then stand still and tank...

Icehowl was more like... stand still and watch the boss, while you were stunned/frozen/knocked down/etc. The only "fun" part was knowing when to proactively hit cooldowns based on who was targeted for the charge, since you knew the hunters wouldn't have a tranq shot in the air before Icehowl would 1-shot most tanks (post-nerf, it was even more fun pre-nerf).
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Arjuna » Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:49 am

Yelena wrote:
Arjuna wrote:1st boss was: stand still and taunt off each other, then stand still or kite, and then stand still and tank...

Icehowl was more like... stand still and watch the boss, while you were stunned/frozen/knocked down/etc. The only "fun" part was knowing when to proactively hit cooldowns based on who was targeted for the charge, since you knew the hunters wouldn't have a tranq shot in the air before Icehowl would 1-shot most tanks (post-nerf, it was even more fun pre-nerf).

some people just never could learn how to move out of the way...it was amazing to see...and depressing...
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Yelena » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:18 am

My personal favorite was the Holy Paladins who thought they could stand still and bubble, and all would be good, "I didn't know the boss would still enrage."
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Chasey » Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:53 am

I really don't know what to say to some of the responses here. I guess maybe I'm not as good as some around here.
I found Ulduar fun and tough at times to tank.
XT's adds needed movement and staying in range.
Yogg was a great fight, P1 specially.
The keepers all added challange.
Its funny, I always had to OT in Ulduar and my tanking partern the MT would ask, why do you waste points in PoJ? I told him, next week try picking up the adds and gathering the trash...he got why my 2 points meant so much..

ICC has its moments, but some are a snore fest. Flex and a few others seem to either trivialized the older fights! or maybe a few of us have found fun and challange in the game as it is. Honestly I don't see how anyone could say, and mean...that the LK has very little movement involved when the supposed top guild in the world got banned for trying to make the platform bigger to creat more room for them to move.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Leidus » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:14 am

Arjuna wrote:
Leidus wrote:While I didn't like ToC overall, mainly due to no trash (boss boss boss boss boss switch to heroic boss boss boss boss boss done was pretty dumb), I found the actual boss encounters in ToC to be much more engaging and inventive than those in Ulduar.

really?

1st boss was: stand still and taunt off each other, then stand still or kite, and then stand still and tank...
2nd boss was: stand still and tank...
3d boss was: not tanked...
4th boss was: stand still and tank, sometimes switch color and back again...
5th boss was: stand still and tank, sometimes run around like a maniac...

personally I thought that tanking in ToC was a huuuge yawnfeast and could do it in my sleep...


I can say all that about Ulduar too.

As MT:

FL: Not tanked
Ignis: move left and right
Razorscale: I hate add fights, phase 2 stand there and tank, make minor adjustments
XT: Stand there and tank
Iron Council: Stand there and tank, move guy out of stuff. Die as part of the encounter.
Kologarn: Stand there and tank
Auriaya: Watch people die on pull to retarded hide around corner pulling requirement, stand there and tank, occasionally move out of void zone
Mimiron: An actual engaging fight, that I absolutely hate.
Freya: Stand there and tank
Thorim: I hate add fights, and phase 2, stand there and tank while taunting and moving behind him sometimes.
Hodir: An actual engaging fight that I did enjoy.
Vezax: Tank some, kite some, wonder how people complain about OOMing.
Yogg: I hate add fights. Wish I could go inside him to see something actually fun other than smacking tentacles and rounding up adds.

So.. as you can see.. with a negative mindset, you can probably boil most fights in the game down to "stand still and tank" "sometimes taunt" and "sometimes kite", and we're both leaving out things that different individuals found fun about the encounters. I could probably make a list that makes ICC, BT, SSC, and TK look boring as shit, but IMO they definitely aren't.

As I said originally, I often feel alone in thinking Ulduar is the weakest raid of the expansion.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Navan » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:51 pm

I found Ulduar fun to tank. Especially when you where gunning for the hard modes and a Drake.
Sure, Ignis, Razorscale, Kologarn, XT and Auriaya where pretty bland. But they became much more interesting when we eliminated our second tank and had him DPS.

Solo tanking 3 tree Freya (10man) was a kick in the pants. Hodir was great because positioning was critical. Mimiron was equal parts fun and infuriating. Algalon was a pretty straight forward fight for a tank, but he was tuned hard enough that little mistakes equaled a wipe and engaged your full concentration.

The fact of the matter is that fights are most fun when they challenge you. As you gear up, and as you gain experience in the fight mechanics they stop challenging you and become boring. There are very few fights where after that first night of raiding I can go "wow, that fight sucked." (looking at you Faction Champs). A fight with a good example of good mechanics but that you out gear would be Lord Jaraxxus. When he was release he was tuned too low with mechanics that where very easy to learn, most guilds downed him in one or two attempts.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Arjuna » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:58 pm

Leidus wrote:I can say all that about Ulduar too.

As MT:

FL: Not tanked
Ignis: move left and right
Razorscale: I hate add fights, phase 2 stand there and tank, make minor adjustments
XT: Stand there and tank
Iron Council: Stand there and tank, move guy out of stuff. Die as part of the encounter.
Kologarn: Stand there and tank
Auriaya: Watch people die on pull to retarded hide around corner pulling requirement, stand there and tank, occasionally move out of void zone
Mimiron: An actual engaging fight, that I absolutely hate.
Freya: Stand there and tank
Thorim: I hate add fights, and phase 2, stand there and tank while taunting and moving behind him sometimes.
Hodir: An actual engaging fight that I did enjoy.
Vezax: Tank some, kite some, wonder how people complain about OOMing.
Yogg: I hate add fights. Wish I could go inside him to see something actually fun other than smacking tentacles and rounding up adds.

So.. as you can see.. with a negative mindset, you can probably boil most fights in the game down to "stand still and tank" "sometimes taunt" and "sometimes kite", and we're both leaving out things that different individuals found fun about the encounters. I could probably make a list that makes ICC, BT, SSC, and TK look boring as shit, but IMO they definitely aren't.

As I said originally, I often feel alone in thinking Ulduar is the weakest raid of the expansion.

you seem to be a pretty negative person...I get the feel that you really don't enjoy tanking...

Whatever you say, you yourself found lot's more good points about Ulduar than there is in ToC...

Then we go hardmodes...

ToC:
All fights: everything hits harder...
...aaaand that's about it...

Ulduar:
FL: very intensive fight where you need to preform to the best you can (well nowdays you can steamroll it)
Ignis: Ok, a bit easy peasy where you only stood and tried to do as much threat you could while surviving...
Razorscale: Controlling the adds, positioning them infront of razor for the breath...
XT: Pick up the sparks and keep threat while the dps nuke them down...pretty straightforward...
Kologarn: Pretty easy still...
Iron Council: Pretty easy, mostly dps that fail...
Auriaya: Dps only get gibbed if you fail as a tank...pretty straightforward...
Keepers: Awesome fights, very tense!
Vezax: keeping aggro while no mana regen, very nasty at times...
Yogg: Awesome fight that has it all...

If your view that the MT:s job is to tank the most boring part of the bossfights, then sure, go ahead and do that. I take pride in my awesome add-handling and kiting.

Just because you yourself refuse to tank almost anything other than static bosses don't get everybody else caught up in your delusions...
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Yelena » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:29 pm

Auriaya was an interesting encounter with regards to how guilds chose to pull it, trap and totem pulling was usually the most common. Being an Engineer, I preferred the Explosive Decoy approach, since Auriaya would aggro on it, giving me initial threat on everything, blow cooldowns and round it all up.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Umslapogus » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:23 am

I think with most fights you can add complexity to the tanking if you feel so inclined, but there will always be fights which are less strenuous for particular roles. Just because tanking BQL is a bit unchallenging to the tanks, it's not a bad encounter since the difficulty of the fight is for others to deal with. We get a bit of a rest there, while the melee DPS get relaxation on Saurfang, and so on.

The only expansion that became dull really quickly for me was ToC -- and a good deal of that was that it was short enough that we ended up running it on main 25, on alt25, on main 25 hardmode, on alt 10 and on main 10 hardmode each week. The effect is much like an instance with 25 bosses but 5 of each being identical.

I do know healers, however, who really object to the 30% buff in ICC, as they don't feel that anything is left to be inherently challenging in the fights, it's simply waiting for a major cockup to make them feel as if they should be there. Sadly we still have ample people who can be relied upon to provide those moments of madness - and there always seems to be a new way to provide this sort of challenge.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Leidus » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:49 am

Arjuna wrote:you seem to be a pretty negative person...I get the feel that you really don't enjoy tanking...

Whatever you say, you yourself found lot's more good points about Ulduar than there is in ToC...

Then we go hardmodes...

ToC:
All fights: everything hits harder...
...aaaand that's about it...

Ulduar:
FL: very intensive fight where you need to preform to the best you can (well nowdays you can steamroll it)
Ignis: Ok, a bit easy peasy where you only stood and tried to do as much threat you could while surviving...
Razorscale: Controlling the adds, positioning them infront of razor for the breath...
XT: Pick up the sparks and keep threat while the dps nuke them down...pretty straightforward...
Kologarn: Pretty easy still...
Iron Council: Pretty easy, mostly dps that fail...
Auriaya: Dps only get gibbed if you fail as a tank...pretty straightforward...
Keepers: Awesome fights, very tense!
Vezax: keeping aggro while no mana regen, very nasty at times...
Yogg: Awesome fight that has it all...

If your view that the MT:s job is to tank the most boring part of the bossfights, then sure, go ahead and do that. I take pride in my awesome add-handling and kiting.

Just because you yourself refuse to tank almost anything other than static bosses don't get everybody else caught up in your delusions...


I'm not negative at all, and I love tanking! :P I was just using the same negativity you had toward ToC and applying it to Ulduar. I also applied it to the hard modes I did accomplish while it was new (everything except Mim, Vezax, Yogg, and Algalon).

I didn't find the additional features of the fights in Ulduar on HM to be that much more engaging. They did make the fights better than their normal versions, well, in some cases, but I personally still find the encounter designs in ToC and ICC to be much more fun, both on Normal and Hard.

Interestingly enough, my raid actually went back to Ulduar last night with our remaining raid time for the week to finally clear HM Mim and Algalon just to get it down for completion's sake, and I was instantly reminded of that Ulduar never really did anything for me.

It's just a personal preference. It seems most people liked Ulduar most out of the entire expansion, and for whatever reason, I'm the opposite and it just did nothing for me.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Chasey » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:06 pm

Its funny how there is a difference of opinion here, but I think leidus you seem to be in the minority of everyone I've met. Toc was a joke, a filler. Its in essence no different than RS. An expansion that gave us Naxx as the 1st raid and a pit or circle of standing around waiting for the pagentry to pass so you can do the next fight. ToC was horrible and really served no purpose in this game, it drove avoidance and gear rating up.
Ulduar gave us some truely innovative fights and great boss mechanics. It was the first time in Wrath we had to worry about mana and threat. Firefighter, knock knock knock on wood, my Cache was rare and 1 light were like completely different fights. To me it was the 1st time I realized I might not be able to be elite as a tank. Not due to skill but just shear time behind the keyboard amount of wipes and study time it takes to know the ins and outs of a fight. I lke to learn on the job tanking, Ulduar made you (pre nerfs and over gearing) be perfect. Even ICC didn't require that on the 1st 4 bosses.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Flex » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:21 am

Chasey wrote:Flex and a few others seem to either trivialized the older fights!


Saying older fights are not challenging to tank is not the same as saying they are trivial. I've had fun and have enjoyed every raid zone I have gone in to but I don't see what is so special about Ulduar mechanics.

There are some truths for tanking: Add fights are more engaging for tanks as are fights that challenge you to balance threat vs survivability.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Leidus » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:21 am

Chasey wrote:Its funny how there is a difference of opinion here, but I think leidus you seem to be in the minority of everyone I've met. Toc was a joke, a filler. Its in essence no different than RS. An expansion that gave us Naxx as the 1st raid and a pit or circle of standing around waiting for the pagentry to pass so you can do the next fight. ToC was horrible and really served no purpose in this game, it drove avoidance and gear rating up.
Ulduar gave us some truely innovative fights and great boss mechanics. It was the first time in Wrath we had to worry about mana and threat. Firefighter, knock knock knock on wood, my Cache was rare and 1 light were like completely different fights. To me it was the 1st time I realized I might not be able to be elite as a tank. Not due to skill but just shear time behind the keyboard amount of wipes and study time it takes to know the ins and outs of a fight. I lke to learn on the job tanking, Ulduar made you (pre nerfs and over gearing) be perfect. Even ICC didn't require that on the 1st 4 bosses.


I will definitely agree that ToC as a raid was a complete failure. It would have made an awesome companion raid to a more standard style raid (like Maly and Sarth were to Naxx), but as the sole dungeon of a raid tier, it was a failure. However, I did enjoy the encounter design more at least at first.. running the same 5 bosses 5 times a week was pretty awful after a while. Then again, I tired of most Ulduar encounters pretty quickly too.

I still consider ICC to be the highlight of WotLK raiding, despite it's horrible gated release (especially in TOGC gear...).
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Cardano » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:54 pm

As far as tank damage goes, I was actually impressed with Algalon. His melee hits were substantial and yet when he cast specials ( Meteor, summon stars / constellations ) his dps output dropped noticably on the tank. I actually prefer non dbm announced sequences that make you react, as opposed to the big "Lich King begins to cast Soul Reaper" DBM warning that a monkey could mash cooldowns in response to.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Arjuna » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:44 am

Cardano wrote:As far as tank damage goes, I was actually impressed with Algalon. His melee hits were substantial and yet when he cast specials ( Meteor, summon stars / constellations ) his dps output dropped noticably on the tank. I actually prefer non dbm announced sequences that make you react, as opposed to the big "Lich King begins to cast Soul Reaper" DBM warning that a monkey could mash cooldowns in response to.

raid without DBM then?

I used to do that when I played from an internet cafe when my net was down, was pretty challenging :)
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