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Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

SPOILERS Discussion about the Cataclysm Beta SPOILERS

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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Pizbit » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:02 am

knaughty wrote:That sounds pretty damn nice. The obvious implication is that we'd be able to put Holy Shield up with mana instead of Holy Power - since he's saying you can put HS up when you can't hit the boss - and if you can't hit the boss you have no Holy Power from CS.

HS, CS <filler>, CS <filler>, CS <filler> SHAZAM! - HS refesh plus shield through face.


To be more specific, are you thinking along the lines of casting HS with just mana as the requirement, then ShoR (needs HP to be used?) and refreshes HS based off how many HP were used? "cause that's be pretty cool, especially if the damage of ShoR was also scaled off # of HP.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Arjuna » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:20 am

what I mean is that the bleed is a thing made for single targets and can be spread through thunderclap, consecration is one of those nerfed aoe abilities...

I didn't bring in retribution aura because it is not a prot pally exclusive thing,if you have a retri in the party you'll get it anyway so it's not a distinct advantage just for pallytanks

if talanted this and if talanted that, you forget that HotR is a talent as well...

somehow the warriors always seem to get the mobs into that "narrow" frontal cone that you speak of, at least the semi-skilled ones...

and I forgot about EfaE, sorry
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Yelena » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:04 am

Arjuna wrote:what I mean is that the bleed is a thing made for single targets and can be spread through thunderclap, consecration is one of those nerfed aoe abilities...

I didn't bring in retribution aura because it is not a prot pally exclusive thing,if you have a retri in the party you'll get it anyway so it's not a distinct advantage just for pallytanks

if talanted this and if talanted that, you forget that HotR is a talent as well...

somehow the warriors always seem to get the mobs into that "narrow" frontal cone that you speak of, at least the semi-skilled ones...

and I forgot about EfaE, sorry

Prot Paladins also get a talent (far enough down the tree to make it exclusive from Holy/Retribution) that buffs Consecration's damage. End result is still basically the same, so long as the threat is comparable, I don't care much either way. The talent looks optional within the current tree, and Blizzard has admitted that they don't intend Blood and Thunder to be a non-negotiable talent for Prot Warriors either.

And... Shockwave is also a talent, which I usually don't have issues hitting my intended targets with on my Warrior. Sometimes one will move at the last second and I'll miss it, in which case it's usually easy enough to directly target it and hit it with something else to ensure I have threat on it.

Just to clarify: My two points were that the current model of the game has led to Prot Paladins becoming rather lazy in general with regards to AoE tanking, and now are crying injustice in that they might actually have to do some work to keep mobs glued to them in Cataclysm. That, and with how things are starting to shape up (with regards to our toolset), our AoE tools are (or will be) fine; knowing when to use them, how to use them, where to use them, and on what targets to use them, will be what helps differentiate a good tank from a mediocre tank.

Also take into consideration that numbers aren't finished being tweaked with yet, at this point it's impossible to guess what abilities X, Y, and Z will hit for.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Arjuna » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:14 am

I can just remind you that the talent that buffed consecration damage do so no longer
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby knaughty » Sat Jul 31, 2010 5:32 am

Pizbit wrote:To be more specific, are you thinking along the lines of casting HS with just mana as the requirement, then ShoR (needs HP to be used?) and refreshes HS based off how many HP were used? "cause that's be pretty cool, especially if the damage of ShoR was also scaled off # of HP.

That's my understanding of the poorly worded random surmise from GC, yes - something like this:

Holy Shield will use mana, not Holy Power. 15% block, unknown duration / CD.
ShoR Mk2 will use Holy Power, do damage, and refresh Holy Shield.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Gaffer » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:20 am

Arjuna wrote:AS(which we don't want to use because we'll need it for pulling the next group)


I know we're all programmed to think otherwise, but Avenger's Shield is not required to make a pull. It is also rarely necessary for a pull. We better get used to it since Blizzard is looking to make this our signature move.

steadypal wrote:why wouldnt it be? ret can have inquisition, and templars verdict and DS .. we have 1 use of holy power, and if shield slam will refresh it, hmm wonder what they'll do?


I believe in the post where the possibility of Sheild of Righteousness returning was mentioned also stated that the current iteration is consuming Holy Power. You're still spending Holy Power to refresh Holy Shield; you just gain an ability while doing it. As for my statement, I just don't think they are going to give us the option of maintaining both 15% block and 30% Holy Damage. They'd rather us have to sacrifice something to gain that much damage.
Last edited by Gaffer on Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Chicken » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:25 am

Gaffer wrote:
Arjuna wrote:AS(which we don't want to use because we'll need it for pulling the next group)


I know we're all programmed to think otherwise, but Avenger's Shield is not required to make a pull. It is also rarely necessary for a pull. We better get used to it since Blizzard is looking to make this our signature move.
It's not getting used to it for me, I've stopped using it ever since they made Hand of Reckoning do good amounts of damage just because of the daze.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Meloree » Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:43 am

Gaffer wrote:
Arjuna wrote:AS(which we don't want to use because we'll need it for pulling the next group)


I know we're all programmed to think otherwise, but Avenger's Shield is not required to make a pull. It is also rarely necessary for a pull. We better get used to it since Blizzard is looking to make this our signature move.


Alternatively, you don't have to use the proc on trash, if you're using AS to pull - but it's still likely to be useful on bosses. If AS is indeed our hardest hitting move, it's likely to be worth pushing every time you see the proc, regardless of where you are in the "rotation".

Gaffer wrote:
steadypal wrote:why wouldnt it be? ret can have inquisition, and templars verdict and DS .. we have 1 use of holy power, and if shield slam will refresh it, hmm wonder what they'll do?


I believe in the post where the possibility of Sheild of Righteousness returning was mentioned also stated that the current iteration is consuming Holy Power. You're still spending Holy Power to refresh Holy Shield; you just gain an ability while doing it. As for my statement, I just don't think they are going to give us the option of maintaining both 15% block and 30% Holy Damage. They'd rather us have to sacrifice something to gain that much damage.


I personally think something is likely to happen with Inquisition to encourage us to think twice about pushing that button on any meaningful content. 30% increase to Holy Damage will be a ~15-20% increase to overall damage and threat. If we're balanced around not using it, that's OP as hell in farm content and threat-races (and trash, probably), even if it's exclusive with Holy Shield - I'd give up some block for more damage on a lot of fights, even in progression. It's great for Ret to have a maintenancy buff, something they have to actually watch, but being baseline and abusable by prot is going to be a balancing nightmare. I predict, when the trees settle down and they start doing proper balancing passes, that Inquisition dies for prot.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Noradin » Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:42 am

Meloree wrote: I predict, when the trees settle down and they start doing proper balancing passes, that Inquisition dies for prot.

Exclusive with Righteous Fury?
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby seigert » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:08 am

Noradin wrote:
Meloree wrote: I predict, when the trees settle down and they start doing proper balancing passes, that Inquisition dies for prot.

Exclusive with Righteous Fury?


It would be good, btw, because we will be able to offtank with RF down & Inquisition up and don't think about MT 'outthreating'.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby steadypal » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:38 am

YUMMY glyph of AS, with inquisition up, and conviction, 30k+ AS crits FTW lol
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Noradin » Sat Jul 31, 2010 12:30 pm

seigert wrote:
Noradin wrote:
Meloree wrote: I predict, when the trees settle down and they start doing proper balancing passes, that Inquisition dies for prot.

Exclusive with Righteous Fury?


It would be good, btw, because we will be able to offtank with RF down & Inquisition up and don't think about MT 'outthreating'.


We would most likely loose our damage reduction.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Dantriges » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:09 pm

Ah well if the numbers get too high, the nerfbat will come and hammer us in company with his with his brother overnerf.

Could see an armor reduction or similar stuff, when using inquisition unles they don´t care we us it.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Minarva » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:59 pm

After testing it seems Vindication hasn't really changed (unless the build is bugged in this regard). Currently Vindication is procing on all attacks, but seems to proc 100% of the time from HW.
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Re: Beta build 12644 (July 30, 2010)

Postby Suzytincan » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:10 pm

Gaffer wrote:
Arjuna wrote:AS(which we don't want to use because we'll need it for pulling the next group)


I know we're all programmed to think otherwise, but Avenger's Shield is not required to make a pull. It is also rarely necessary for a pull. We better get used to it since Blizzard is looking to make this our signature move.

steadypal wrote:why wouldnt it be? ret can have inquisition, and templars verdict and DS .. we have 1 use of holy power, and if shield slam will refresh it, hmm wonder what they'll do?


I believe in the post where the possibility of Sheild of Righteousness returning was mentioned also stated that the current iteration is consuming Holy Power. You're still spending Holy Power to refresh Holy Shield; you just gain an ability while doing it. As for my statement, I just don't think they are going to give us the option of maintaining both 15% block and 30% Holy Damage. They'd rather us have to sacrifice something to gain that much damage.


Was trying to find a good place to put my thought. Hopefully this is relevant.

I know they won't do this, but this is what I'd like to see from the Holy Power/Shield Slam combo:

1) Make us still use Holy Power to get our initial Holy Shield up. The amount of mitigation it provides (most likely in terms of chance to block) increases with the amount of Holy Power consumed.

2) Make Shield of the Righteous damage scale with Holy Power consumed.

3) Make Shield of the Righteous always refresh Holy Shield at the power it was at, regardless of the amount of Holy Power consumed by the Shield of the Righteous.

My thoughts were to give us some ramp-up time to make us think about how much Holy Power to invest in our Holy Shield depending on the length of the fight, and the need for DPS to start immediately. However, on long fights, where we know it is a good investment to get our Holy Shield to full potential, we can still make further decisions in the fight that can vary with phases, etc. If you're in a burn phase, you wait til you have three Holy Power, then spend it on a more damaging ShotR. If you're in a high damage phase, you wait til you have 2-3 Holy Power and then spend it on a more protective Word of Glory, followed by a 1 Holy Power Shield Slam. You still must hit ShotR at least once every 20 seconds to keep Holy Shield up. You only get but so much Holy Power during that time. So your "interesting decision" is based on the idea that you can tailor your threat/survival around how you spend your limited income of Holy Power.

You couldn't make the difference too extreme, or else we will becomes OP compared to other tanks. But our "flavor" would become the tank that can, to a limited extent, adjust our mitigation and threat during a fight without a gear change.

Too OP?
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