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This is why games are pirated so heavily.

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Re: This is why games are pirated so heavily.

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jul 23, 2010 11:18 am

Fivelives wrote:An interesting point was raised earlier in this thread - how do we set a value on games?

Is it based on length, replayability, social playability, or something else? What makes one game worth the $60 price tag that they set on it, and others not - assume the same production quality in each, e.g. no comparing a Bioware RPG to a piece of movie tie-in shovelware.

Gah, that's a tough question. I assume you asking from a consumer perspective? I'm just not sure we'll find a proper answer, because it is a somewhat personal thing. I've played a couple of games I didn't care for all that much, because of the social aspect of my friends playing it. On the other hand, I play some free browser games that I enjoy more, yet I have no desire to engage in the mini transactions those games offer. I admit, it's not a particularly logical stance, but there it is. All of those things you mentioned contribute to a quality product, but I'm not sure we can draw a direct parallel to value from them.

From a business perspective, everything has a price point at which you will make more or less money with a product. For instance, even if you created an incredibly great game, you'd have a hard time selling it here for $100. Not because the gaming company didn't do a great job with it, but because that falls outside the socially established norm. I assume those costs at some point were based on expenses and the typical business motivations, but that doesn't seem to be the case now. For instance when I was a kid, it wasn't that unusual for a game to cost around $50. That was like 20 years ago, and still games cost about the same, and often become a bit cheaper in a few months.

Then there are the different models for paying for games. MMO's use a monthly subscription for which they justify by offering continued development/content/support to increase the number of hours you get out of a game. On the flip side, over the course of the game some end users pay out a ton of money, an amount they almost certainly wouldn't have shelled out in a lump sum.

For instance, WoW hits what six years this November? If my quick and dirty math is right, that's close to $1200 for someone who has played from day 1 to Cata. Obviously, no one would dump that on a game...all at once.

For me I guess, hours played is a pretty good indication of worth, but I have to caveat that with my illogical inconsistency I mentioned earlier.
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Re: This is why games are pirated so heavily.

Postby Fivelives » Fri Jul 23, 2010 12:25 pm

I mean more in terms of "I would only pay $20 for that game" vs "I'll buy the $80 collector's edition of that game"
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Re: This is why games are pirated so heavily.

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:11 am

Fivelives wrote:I mean more in terms of "I would only pay $20 for that game" vs "I'll buy the $80 collector's edition of that game"

Well, that's one I don't really get myself. I think that generally falls under the George Carlin stand up bit about marketing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFCMhSzeGuA (Note, profanity, NSFW)
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Re: This is why games are pirated so heavily.

Postby Flex » Mon Jul 26, 2010 12:05 pm

I wonder if this is the first step to end the dumbness of "Legal to back up your media, not legal to break DRM to back up your media" dumbness going on.

"Merely bypassing a technological protection that restricts a user from viewing or using a work is insufficient to trigger the (Digital Millennium Copyright Act's) anti-circumvention provision," Judge Garza wrote for the New Orleans-based court.
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Re: This is why games are pirated so heavily.

Postby Shathus » Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:27 pm

Io.Draco wrote:
No matter how you cleverly employ the use of the English language and/or understanding of legalese, anyone with common sense can see that obtaining something, or a copy of, where the owner has not given you permission to do so, is theft.

As has been said, you can justify it in your own mind however you like but you cannot change what it is.


Oh yes, certainly making a copy of a CD is theft, certainly.

View it as you like, but do not claim it is a fact just because it is your opinion, because it is not a fact.


Sorry, going back a page or two...

Is there are difference between having a physical copy in the form of a CD/DVD and having a digital copy on your hard drive then? Wouldn't both be theft? Yes the arguments in this thread seem to indicate otherwise
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Re: This is why games are pirated so heavily.

Postby Jerth » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:24 am

Shathus wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:
No matter how you cleverly employ the use of the English language and/or understanding of legalese, anyone with common sense can see that obtaining something, or a copy of, where the owner has not given you permission to do so, is theft.

As has been said, you can justify it in your own mind however you like but you cannot change what it is.


Oh yes, certainly making a copy of a CD is theft, certainly.

View it as you like, but do not claim it is a fact just because it is your opinion, because it is not a fact.


Sorry, going back a page or two...

Is there are difference between having a physical copy in the form of a CD/DVD and having a digital copy on your hard drive then? Wouldn't both be theft? Yes the arguments in this thread seem to indicate otherwise


To me the difference is, if you have bought something and then want to make a copy of it for your own personal use/backup, then there is no problem. This generally applies to music and films since software is more problematic since you get into machine licences, but even then, if it is for only your use I see no issue.

If you then give away that copy, or recieve a copy from someone else, then that is theft, copy right infringement or what ever you want to call it. You are delibrately avoiding paying for something that has been given a value, even if you believe that value is overpriced. Not having the money to buy the original is not an excuse for taking a copy, but it seems to have become the norm now as everyone wants everything they can get regardless.
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Re: This is why games are pirated so heavily.

Postby Shathus » Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:53 am

I don't think anymore (myself included) is arguing that making a digital copy of something you own is illegal, I had meant a digital copy, that was downloaded off the internet (and you in no way shape or form own a physical copy anywhere).
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Re: This is why games are pirated so heavily.

Postby Io.Draco » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:44 am

I don't think anymore (myself included) is arguing that making a digital copy of something you own is illegal


But doesn't the law make it illegal?
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Re: This is why games are pirated so heavily.

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:48 am

Io.Draco wrote:
I don't think anymore (myself included) is arguing that making a digital copy of something you own is illegal


But doesn't the law make it illegal?

Just a straight copy? Usually not, otherwise you would not be able to back up your media, or possibly even install it.
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Re: This is why games are pirated so heavily.

Postby Flex » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:15 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Io.Draco wrote:
I don't think anymore (myself included) is arguing that making a digital copy of something you own is illegal


But doesn't the law make it illegal?

Just a straight copy? Usually not, otherwise you would not be able to back up your media, or possibly even install it.


Like I posted above. Legal: backing up your DVDs. Not legal: Making software that allows you to back up your DVDs.
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Re: This is why games are pirated so heavily.

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:43 am

Flex wrote:Like I posted above. Legal: backing up your DVDs. Not legal: Making software that allows you to back up your DVDs.

Well your post above applies to breaking the DRM to perform a backup, but DRM is only used on a very tiny percentage of digital media. Even then you can still usually create a digital copy without having to break the DRM because they often include their own backup utility.
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Re: This is why games are pirated so heavily.

Postby Flex » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:21 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Well your post above applies to breaking the DRM to perform a backup, but DRM is only used on a very tiny percentage of digital media. Even then you can still usually create a digital copy without having to break the DRM because they often include their own backup utility.


But in the common case of backing up DVD movies most programs are viewed as illegal since they circumvent the copy-protection code. RealDVD, which copied everything on the DVD including the encryption, was successfully blocked from sale by a lawsuit brought forth by the MPAA. So I know of no way to legally back up my purchased DVDs.

The lawsuit that favored IBM's action in emulating the hardware dongle for perfectly legal reasons may be an end to this butchering of fair use.
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Re: This is why games are pirated so heavily.

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:40 pm

Flex wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Well your post above applies to breaking the DRM to perform a backup, but DRM is only used on a very tiny percentage of digital media. Even then you can still usually create a digital copy without having to break the DRM because they often include their own backup utility.


But in the common case of backing up DVD movies most programs are viewed as illegal since they circumvent the copy-protection code. RealDVD, which copied everything on the DVD including the encryption, was successfully blocked from sale by a lawsuit brought forth by the MPAA. So I know of no way to legally back up my purchased DVDs.

The lawsuit that favored IBM's action in emulating the hardware dongle for perfectly legal reasons may be an end to this butchering of fair use.

Again you are referring specifically to movies, and only those that contain a sort of copy protection, that's a pretty limited scope in the much broader category of digital media.

You could always use AnyDVD.
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Re: This is why games are pirated so heavily.

Postby Kelaan » Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:08 pm

If you could make bit-perfect copies of a DVD image, and burn them to a disc with encryption intact, you wouldn't have circumvented the technical barriers (which the DMCA prohibits). Unfortunately, DVDs and writable DVDs have different capacities so we can't do that... but yeah. If I could magically clone a DVD so that my original didn't get scratched or destroyed by toddlers, that would still be legal, as long as I wasn't distributing it, because I'd still be using the encrypted bits in the way they were originally intended.
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Re: This is why games are pirated so heavily.

Postby Flex » Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:11 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Again you are referring specifically to movies, and only those that contain a sort of copy protection, that's a pretty limited scope in the much broader category of digital media.


Copy protected digital media is the only case that matters when testing the legality of the DMCA since the DMCA specifically makes it illegal to circumvent copy protection measures.

You could always use AnyDVD.


Just going by the wording on the AnyDVD website I am pretty sure it is technically illegal in the US.

Kelaan wrote:If you could make bit-perfect copies of a DVD image, and burn them to a disc with encryption intact, you wouldn't have circumvented the technical barriers (which the DMCA prohibits).


From my understanding RealDVD did exactly that, except the burning part, and even tied the ripped image to the hard drive it was saved to so you couldn't even transfer it from your desktop to a laptop.
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