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A new way to challenge tanks?

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A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby xstratax » Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:40 pm

Heres the basics: Mana matters, avoidance is reduced significantly, and surviving 5+ hits is the new goal.

In such a damage environment, I believe the developers have 3 knobs to turn to tune boss melee output: haste (swing speed), damage, and crit. up until now, only 2 were possibilities due to hit size. With th smaller hit sizes we should be seeing going forward, it is possible to add more excitement and randomness to encounters with the use of ajustable boss crit values. when a boss cant come close to killing you with a crit, but still do significant melee damage, the fight gains depth. Imagine that you have two bosses, they are nearly identical. Boss A hits for 10k every 1.5s, and has a crit of 5.6%, so were immune. His dps is 6667. Boss B hits for 6667 every 1.5s, and has 56% crit (50% on tanks). His crits are for 13.4k, and his average damage per swing is 10k.His dps is also 6667.

That I hope illustrates the idea, that crit immunity is needed for hard hitters, but for these fast hitters, not neccesarily the case. An ajustable crit value for bosses could add something too the monotony of boss auto swings.

Of course the rush hour heat may have warped my mind when I imagined this...
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby heuvarius » Mon Jul 26, 2010 11:02 pm

I don't like this idea.

Crit, and consequently negating crit, contribute nothing to challenging tanks. It is the reason why defense is going away and all tanks are getting it baked into their spec.

Based on the current model in wotlk, all you end up doing is enforcing tanks to use PVP gear and/or gem for resil.

ps: I don't disagree with the "variable melee auto swing idea", but this is achieve by bosses doing "on next swing" special attacks that does more than normal damage, which they have already been doing in the current encounter designs.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Chicken » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:52 am

They do actually do this occasionally on trash mobs, some of them have higher crit rates than normal.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby hoho » Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:56 am

Chicken wrote:They do actually do this occasionally on trash mobs, some of them have higher crit rates than normal.
I'm pretty sure all those mobs have some buffs on them that increase crit rating.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby trellian » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:01 am

Or you have a sort of unbalancing strike on you.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby PsiVen » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:37 am

Random damage doesn't create an interesting challenge for tanks because they can't control it. The best you can do is prepare for the worst scenario, which is made significantly worse by adding crit chance. I don't think this would be any more interesting than Crushing Blows, which were generally not a favorite mechanic.

The way to challenge tanks on boss fights is to design the fight that way. Add some abilities that a tank can either time correctly or prepare correctly to negate. It doesn't have to be with a stat knob. Damage that you can't prevent yourself is challenging the healers, not the tank.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby andx » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:21 am

In my mind you can chalenge tanks by:

a.) Positioning/movenment
b.) CD usaged based on events that can be for seen and aren't random/instant.
c.) large groups of mobs that have to be kept off of eager DPS
d.) Debuff that must be shed (tank switching)
e.) Giving them a dual role (orb tank in Blood Princes)



I'm sure i'm missing something but making tanks take random spike damage seems lazy.
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Mutley » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:28 am

I'm hoping they won't repeat hardmodes like putricide for tanks. The difficulty increase for tanks is hardly noticeable. Come to think of it, a lot of hardmodes work that way. :/
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby andx » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:39 am

Mutley wrote:I'm hoping they won't repeat hardmodes like putricide for tanks. The difficulty increase for tanks is hardly noticeable. Come to think of it, a lot of hardmodes work that way. :/


All of WOW for tanks is very stationary, stand here and tank boss sort of deal. i know there are some exceptions but 95% of fights were stand here tank boss. maybe 1-2 bosses per instance had kiting mechanics. It was all kinda blah, sure taking a lot of damage was cool but i wish we had other roles beside stand there and take it to the chin.
Maybe I just have a disease or an addiction to tanking, my gf says I'm a masochist I say I like it rough, either way I'm a tank and I can't escape it.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby PsiVen » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:53 am

You get hit harder, just like every other heroic fight. You're right that hardmodes seldom make our job more complex, but they always require tightening of execution which can still make for a dramatic difference.

All of WOW for tanks is very stationary, stand here and tank boss sort of deal. i know there are some exceptions but 95% of fights were stand here tank boss. maybe 1-2 bosses per instance had kiting mechanics. It was all kinda blah, sure taking a lot of damage was cool but i wish we had other roles beside stand there and take it to the chin.


By my count in ICC, there are 7 stationary tank jobs, 7 mobile tanking jobs and 4 odd jobs (kiting/whatever). And that's counting Sindragosa as having 2 stationary tanks, despite the constant rotation needed in P3. So what you're suggesting really isn't the case anymore; stationary fights are a necessary staple but they're not the only type of fight by a long shot.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Jefferson » Tue Jul 27, 2010 7:57 am

ICC was a pretty overwhelming failure for tanking, imo. Marrowgar involved some fire-puddle dancing, DW involved tank swapping without taunts and a bit of potential kiting for ghosts, boat is boat, PP had a touch of kiting in p2 and 3, BPC and BQL were mind-numbingly boring, val really made me appreciate the lack of an interrupt, and LK included a very little bit of kiting and stunning, with some cooldown coordination. The only fights that were anywhere near as interesting/challenging for tanks as they are for DPS/heals are Saurfang (especially as a pally), the Abom twins (at least, if you're kiting on rotface), and Sindragosa.

I had my guild fall apart during ICC, and joined a more progressed guild as ret and have been completely amazed at how much easier tanking ICC is than dpsing. With any luck, raid designs in Cata will be a lot closer to Uld than ICC. I honestly cannot think of a single fight in Ulduar that wasn't interesting and/or challenging to tank. It's too bad ICC has been such a disappointment on that score...
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby andx » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:05 am

PsiVen wrote: By my count in ICC, there are 7 stationary tank jobs, 7 mobile tanking jobs and 4 odd jobs (kiting/whatever).



Marrowgar- with the exception of post bonestorm is stand in place move left/right a little and tank for phase then move then tank, its not mobile in my book.
LDW- Tank adds then tank boss, not much movement needed here if done correctly
Gunship- Does this even count as a fight? either case Home team tank stand and tank, away team tank hang out have a sandwich then jet pack and tank in place
DBS- stationary
Fester- Stationary
Rotface- MT stationary, OT mobile
Putricide- Mobile / dual role
Blood princes- Physical tank Stationary, Orb tank mobile
BQL- Stationary, OT afk
Val- mobile but you aren't so much tanking a boss here as small adds. But I'll give you the mobile here
Sindy- Our strat is very stationary on heroic and norm. we don't spin the dragon
LK- semi mobile, Really our tanks don't move too much on this fight, Transitions aside.

4 maybe 5 mobile by my count and its not even both tanks. Curious where you find the other 3?

EDIT: I'm not calling you wrong or anything i'm just curious.
Last edited by andx on Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby heuvarius » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:07 am

Mimiron is the best tank challenge in wotlk IMO, esp the first version before they made the base stationary when he's doing pew pew lasers. I hope they add more fights like it into future raids.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Chunes » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:18 am

Jefferson wrote:With any luck, raid designs in Cata will be a lot closer to Uld than ICC. I honestly cannot think of a single fight in Ulduar that wasn't interesting and/or challenging to tank. It's too bad ICC has been such a disappointment on that score...


Agreed except I found XT and Kologarn to be pretty dull as well.
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Re: A new way to challenge tanks?

Postby Flex » Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:24 am

Chunes wrote:
Jefferson wrote:With any luck, raid designs in Cata will be a lot closer to Uld than ICC. I honestly cannot think of a single fight in Ulduar that wasn't interesting and/or challenging to tank. It's too bad ICC has been such a disappointment on that score...


Agreed except I found XT and Kologarn to be pretty dull as well.



Boring fights to boss tank in Ulduar:
Razorscale
Ignis
XT
Iron Council
Kologarn
Auryia
Hodir
Freya
Thorim
Vezax

If your idea of an exciting fight to tank is Kite or Taunt when debuffed or Add tank then Ulduar is A-okay.
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