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The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby tlitp » Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:20 am

theckhd wrote:In terms that tlitp would appreciate, ShoR dropping lower in the FCFS queue creates a different basis set of ability eigenvectors. :P

I assume that tlitp has already run the calculation to compare a single FCFS queue to decoupled queues though? If not, shame on him - the code is still written and on the repository from when I wrote the FCFS article!

I. While a certain Rogue may appreciate that formulation, most people probably wouldn't. Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder, they say.

II. Sancta simplicitas. The 6/9 framework is there, it's been so (over)used that people are able to follow it with their eyes wide shut. Doing some simple substitutions (as appropriate) is less of a burden than forcing one to accommodate to a different queue altogether.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby theckhd » Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:28 am

tlitp wrote:II. Sancta simplicitas. The 6/9 framework is there, it's been so (over)used that people are able to follow it with their eyes wide shut. Doing some simple substitutions (as appropriate) is less of a burden than forcing one to accommodate to a different queue altogether.

True, the overhead involved in training a new queue system would probably offset the gains. That said, Meloree is one of the best. If anyone can do it, he can.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Cylora » Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:33 am

I don't have the luxury of being regemming/enchanting my tank gear for str because I don't have duplicates (yet) and we are still a little shaky on LK heroic :< And I'm still missing a good slow weapon.
But I do have 277 Tiny Abomination and some decent retribution Items, so I'm swapping in those when I want to have some fun.

That's what I came up with. Not quite extreme, but a decent start.
http://chardev.org/?profile=433380
I don't have webstats with this gearset yet, probably going to try it next week. Luckily our holy paladins seem to support this kind of fun and don't mind healing some more, they are mostly bored anyway.
Some notes:
Vindication is a must for me as a tank, I often tank with a DK and our dps warriors suck ^^
JotJ 1 or 2 points doesn't matter dps-wise, we have a Frost DK anyway. I could go for 1/2 and max Devo Aura I guess.
Did I mention I need a good slow weapon? -.-

Tiny Abomination is quite huge, the proc (incl. seal dmg) is about 7% of my dps when I'm wearing normal tank gear and spec (hit capped, expertise softcapped) with Soulbreaker(264) and TAiaJ as the only dps items. And 85 hit is decent, although capping hit is not really hard in ICC. Some Retribution Gear, more expertise and a spec with reckoning should make the trinket even better I guess.

//EDIT: I changed the profile, using 2t9 (chest for defense, shoulders for expertise and the setbonus) allowing me to use one more ret item (the ring). I found a t10 helm on my bank and put in a agi/crit meta gem, so I still maintain 2t10. previously I had t10 chest (no defense), gunship shoulders and Juggernaut Band. Added bonus: I can reenchant the t9 stuff for dps, which I can't do with my usual tank items. Thoughts?

//EDIT2: Have you considered using wintergrasp enchants the maintain crit cap? It should free up some def.
Last edited by Cylora on Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Meloree » Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:45 pm

theckhd wrote:
tlitp wrote:II. Sancta simplicitas. The 6/9 framework is there, it's been so (over)used that people are able to follow it with their eyes wide shut. Doing some simple substitutions (as appropriate) is less of a burden than forcing one to accommodate to a different queue altogether.

True, the overhead involved in training a new queue system would probably offset the gains. That said, Meloree is one of the best. If anyone can do it, he can.


Flattery, sir, will get you everywhere. I'm not sure, intuitively, that a single-queue system doesn't create clashes/deadspots though. Picture the HotR > AS > Judge > ShoR > Cons > HoW > HS queue. Start the fight (AS is on cooldown from the pull), and you end up with HotR, Judge, ShoR, Cons, HotR, HS... 969.

Now, assume you use Judgement, AS comes off cooldown and bumps a ShoR. Therefore, following the queue, you'ld have ShoR next, and then HotR immediately afterwards. Consecration, then Judge, then ShoR, then HotR, then HS, then... empty space. Empty space has to be a loss, no?

Cylora wrote:I don't have webstats with this gearset yet, probably going to try it next week.

Excellent. Link us the parse when you're done, share the fun times. Good luck, and happy parse-hunting.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Xenix » Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:27 pm

Now, assume you use Judgement, AS comes off cooldown and bumps a ShoR. Therefore, following the queue, you'ld have ShoR next, and then HotR immediately afterwards. Consecration, then Judge, then ShoR, then HotR, then HS, then... empty space. Empty space has to be a loss, no?


With most bosses in ICC at least you could toss a Holy Wrath in that empty spot. Not sure how the damage on it compares in your gearset though since you didn't list it.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Meloree » Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:36 pm

Xenix wrote:
Now, assume you use Judgement, AS comes off cooldown and bumps a ShoR. Therefore, following the queue, you'ld have ShoR next, and then HotR immediately afterwards. Consecration, then Judge, then ShoR, then HotR, then HS, then... empty space. Empty space has to be a loss, no?


With most bosses in ICC at least you could toss a Holy Wrath in that empty spot. Not sure how the damage on it compares in your gearset though since you didn't list it.


Didn't use it - granted, it's not a totally empty slot, then, but I don't expect it would hit exceptionally hard. Average hit on trash, 2448 (crits at 1.5, too), so it seems like it should be better to keep every GCD filled with "good" abilities, rather than prioritizing "slightly better" abilities at the cost of having to use bad ones. The expected damage of a Consecrate is something like 8200 damage, vs. 9k for ShoR - It takes a lot of ShoR for Consecrate replacements to cover using an ability with an expected output of 3k.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Anlyra » Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:14 pm

Hi I am new to this forum so i appologize if I break any rules.

I was wondering however if you guys had considered using some of the wrathful ret pvp items, boots, belt, bracers etc. They have a large amount of strength on them and the resilience on them will help you remain uncrittable. the reason I suggest it is I recently (accidently) used my prot DPS set to tank 10man rotface hitting an average of 4800dps, while this set is at only 507 defense, the 2 resilience pieces i wear easily cover the uncrittable cap. I unfortunatly do not have access really to 25man gear, and im not sure how too use matlab, so these points may mean nothing.

Also wouldn't titanium plating be a better shield enchant? though i suppose with using SHOR less it may not be much value.

Here's my armory of the prot dps gear, try not to laugh to hard :D . http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... &cn=Anlyra
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Meloree » Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:21 pm

I don't have any PVP gear - I hate PVP, and don't do it, or there are some pieces that would definitely be useful.

The BV enchant to the shield is very low value for threat, compared to the 18 stam lost - it's worse than a gem trade - again, with the gear I was using, BV is already heavily DR'd, especially during trinket procs - and I'm trying to maintain ~35k unbuffed hp. I may get slightly more aggressive after a week or two of 30%.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Cylora » Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:55 am

I was wondering, are there any bosses where a tank should consider wearing normal tanking gear? Usually the big damage can be mitigated by cooldowns, bosses die fast anyway so you shouldn't get in trouble on e.g. saurfang. But I was thinking about Lady Deathwhisper. Getting gibbed by Frostbolts when interrupters are MCed (or dead because of playing catch-the-spirits) is definitely a possibilty. Your log shows normal dps for you, so I guess you were wearing normal gear.
Are there any (other) bosses where you encountered problems using the dps setup? Sindragosa?
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Meloree » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:24 am

I didn't have a good week. Better luck next week, I guess.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Treck » Wed Jul 21, 2010 7:51 am

Hold your horses, EU havnt started raiding with the 30% buff yet ^^
That said, i try my best, but with tanking gear only, dont wanna upset ma healers :P
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby Kelaan » Wed Jul 21, 2010 10:21 am

Am I better off using my normal (stam-gemmed, survival-enchanted) 251+ tanking gear in a threat set, or taking old T9 gear and gemming/enchanting it for threat stats? I only ask because so much of the 264+ gear seems to have ridiculous amounts of str already.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby boomke » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:33 am

Im kinda new to this forum but i really like all the info on these boards. I wanted to try a dps spec for ages but just didn't have the time to prepare for it. And i didn't wanna do it before i actually aquired a slow weapon. Thing is after some weeks i still dont have a slow dps weapon because it doesnt wanna drop so i just started out with last word heroic.

Yesterday i tested some gear out on a 10 man. And got the following results:

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/55z9z2beaj7mhi82/

At the moment im @ work and my armory doesnt show my dps/tank gear. So i will post my gearset later.

I was wondering tho if healers have problems keeping you up in that gear on heroic 25 fights.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby inthedrops » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:38 am

Cylora wrote:I was wondering, are there any bosses where a tank should consider wearing normal tanking gear?


Lady Deathwhisper: I trusted my interrupers too much and also underestimated the damage of the frostbolts and got one shot trying to do this in DPS gear. And that was 10 heroic, not 25. Definetely need to tone the DPS gear down on this one to survive a frostbolt + the other damage going on.

I personally wouldn't attempt dps gear at all on Sindragosa either. Too much unchained magic/ice blocks on healers that can't be controlled.

I think everything else is fair game.

Personally speaking, I can't do Saurfang because I'll rip off the other tank. No one in my guild has much understanding for my fun.

I WOULD however consider LK at this point. With the 30% increase it's real easy to survive with cooldowns in dps tank gear. Tried a 10 heroic a week or so ago in my DPS set tanking LK and managed to live through P1 at least, with 17k DPS. Something else caused a wipe, forgot what it was. And I put my regular gear back on after that. I just wanted to see if I could live through P1. Figured if I could survive that I can survive everything else.
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Re: The Bleeding Edge of TPS

Postby inthedrops » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:43 am

boomke wrote:I was wondering tho if healers have problems keeping you up in that gear on heroic 25 fights.


You would be doing your raid a disservice if you didn't ask for their approval. Sometimes I switch over to some DPS gear and mention in healer chat that I'll require extra healing and ask if they're ok with it. I've never received an objection.

And yes, as a tank you will most certainly feel the difference. But I've found the simple act of asking healers permission is all it takes. This way they won't be surprised.
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