How to help a new guy: Discourse on Instructional Design

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Re: How to help a new guy: Discourse on Instructional Design

Postby theckhd » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:27 am

That could probably be accomplished just by closing threads that haven't been updated for 1-2 patches and keeping an up-to-date Table of Contents post at the top of the forum, like Bara was doing earlier.

I'm also not a fan of having 10 sticky posts at the top of a forum, which this helps alleviate.
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Re: How to help a new guy: Discourse on Instructional Design

Postby knaughty » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:31 am

Marblehead wrote:I definitely agree on that. A movie is far better evidence. You've given me a reason to make one and I'll certainly try to at some point in the summer.

I'd really enjoy seeing it - I've never actually seen a movie of a good clicker in Warcraft.

Re Startcraft players - the Koreans are now approaching 300 actions per minute in tournaments.

That said, I think the advice stating "keybind" stands. While it is possible to play at the effective difficulty cap of the game while clicking (be able to move, strafe, cast, etc all while maintaining 40 spells per minute) this is much harder than simply learning to keybind.

The "character map" example is a good one - you can type faster with a keyboard that an onscreen one you click.

If you're in the 0.001% "Starcraft 100+ APM clickgod" category, then you'll just have to man up and get a thick skin and deal with my hyperbolic sarcasm.

My "FAQ" posts are written in a particular style, I even explain the tone in the first section of both of them, and yes, they are meant to be "Ha, ha, only serious". They're also not designed to cover the extreme outliers or odd situations - even I've click-tanked a raid: I couldn't really use my left hand, too stiff and sore from having a couple of cannula in the veins when I had some surgery.
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Re: How to help a new guy: Discourse on Instructional Design

Postby Vrimmel » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:07 am

theckhd wrote:I'm not sure I believe that. For the same reason that I'm certain you'd be able to type faster using the keyboard than the Character Map in Windows.


Like mentioned earlier it's because of the GCD. As soon as the spell is cast, move the mouse cursor to next spell in rotation and start clicking like you're aiming for carpal tunnel syndrome when the GCD is close to finishing. In normal keyboard typing there is no GCD, so yes that is very much faster with the keyboard.
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Re: How to help a new guy: Discourse on Instructional Design

Postby jak3676 » Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:14 pm

Can I make a suggestion that in the Tanking 101 post the authors make a focused effort to spell out the acronyms the first time they're used. The glossery with them all listed out is great, but it's helpful if a brand new reader (like me) doesn't have to read the basic training post with 2 windows open - it also realy helps me cement the term & acronym together when I see them used in context together. Likewise if you're using a term that is commonly abbreviated on the forums, then list the acronym too.

I will say though that this forum had been a great help - thanks a bunch
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Re: How to help a new guy: Discourse on Instructional Design

Postby Arnock » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:55 am

One thing that doesn't seem to be covered very well in a lot of the basic tanking guides, is, well, the basics of tanking itself. Bara's "new tank" case study does a pretty good job of simulating having to gear up to a raid level as a fresh 80 without outside help. But even if Bara isn't very familiar with warrior tanking mechanics, he's been tanking on his paladin for years. He knows what, to most of us, is assumed knowledge.

While leveling some alts, I've run quite a few randoms. And while I haven't run into a lot of tanks making huge mistakes when it comes to gearing, enchanting, or speccing, a lot of them have had a lot of issues with the elementary basics of tanking. Things such as LoS'ing casters, keeping mobs in front of them, keeping threat on all the mobs so that the healer doesnt pull, or even casting spells while groups of mobs are smacking them.



It's been quite a long time since I've been a new tank, but I can remember that I had never thought of LoS'ing ranged mobs until either someone showed me, or I read it somewhere (can't remember which).


Perhaps having 3 FAQ's, Tanking 101 for basic things such as the threat table, pulling, etc. that all tanks need to know regardless of class. And then moving on to Tankadin 101 and Tankadin 201, where the guides narrow it down to paladin-specific information such as talents, abilities, stats, etc.

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Re: How to help a new guy: Discourse on Instructional Design

Postby Barathorn » Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:12 am

Arnock wrote:One thing that doesn't seem to be covered very well in a lot of the basic tanking guides, is, well, the basics of tanking itself. Bara's "new tank" case study does a pretty good job of simulating having to gear up to a raid level as a fresh 80 without outside help. But even if Bara isn't very familiar with warrior tanking mechanics, he's been tanking on his paladin for years. He knows what, to most of us, is assumed knowledge.

While leveling some alts, I've run quite a few randoms. And while I haven't run into a lot of tanks making huge mistakes when it comes to gearing, enchanting, or speccing, a lot of them have had a lot of issues with the elementary basics of tanking. Things such as LoS'ing casters, keeping mobs in front of them, keeping threat on all the mobs so that the healer doesnt pull, or even casting spells while groups of mobs are smacking them.



It's been quite a long time since I've been a new tank, but I can remember that I had never thought of LoS'ing ranged mobs until either someone showed me, or I read it somewhere (can't remember which).


Perhaps having 3 FAQ's, Tanking 101 for basic things such as the threat table, pulling, etc. that all tanks need to know regardless of class. And then moving on to Tankadin 101 and Tankadin 201, where the guides narrow it down to paladin-specific information such as talents, abilities, stats, etc.

One needs to know how to count before you learn how to add.


I am trying to LoS mobs while I gear up my warrior but once you start getting into groups with gogogogogogo people [any daily random or once you get over 4k GS for a specific as a generalisation] they aren't interested. You get 1-2 seconds at best to get aggro and that is your lot.

LoS pulls for new tanks are almost impossible to use because the DPS simply outgear the instance so much and have a CBA attitude. It is 'nuke nuke nuke' and that doesn't teach new tanks anything other than how to brute force an instance.

I remember trying to brute force heroic instances in T4 gear in TBC, we soon learnt that wasn't always the best idea. While heroics have changed to become easier for all, the basics should always remain the same. Just because you don't ever have to LoS a pull doesn't mean you shouldn't know 'how' to LoS a pull.

I think your point is very valid Arnock. Nothing should be taken for granted at all. Give the information from the ground up including everything we know collectively no matter how basic. This is what new tanks need the most.

This should include but not be limited to;

Line of sight pulls
Prioritisation of tanking targets
Threat enhancers - MD and TotT
Placement of mobs
Breaking CC
Breaking a stun/fear on yourself

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Re: How to help a new guy: Discourse on Instructional Design

Postby lythac » Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:23 am

Barathorn wrote:Placement of mobs


I would add "facing of mobs" to this (or as another point). Everything we run up and tank is automatically/instinctively faced away from the group both for melee's convenience and more importantly cleave effects. ICC trash is fun when tanks have the Skeletal Warders(?) facing the group.

Cleaves in 5 mans just don't hurt enough when everyone has 30K HP.
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Re: How to help a new guy: Discourse on Instructional Design

Postby econ21 » Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:50 am

I agree that more on how to (paladin) tank would be useful.

For example, in TBC heroics, knowing what CC each class had (at least the name and who it affected) was pretty much essential. Heroic MgT anyone? I ended up loving that instance - methodically marked different mobs for different CC and taking pleasure in watching a good plan pay off. Hopefully, that will come back in Cat. But nowadays, it is almost irrelevant - the only time I wish I retained that knowledge is on the first two ramp pulls in PoS.

In Wotlk, I think some new tanks need to know how to pull and how to fight heroic trash. Coming from the TBC era after a year gap, I was a little surprised to read about the preferred "in your face" pulls we do nowadays but they are strikingly effective. In TBC, I marked, fired off AS, waited - often retiring behind a corner - while CC kicked in as the mobs approached. In Wotlk, I fire off a taunt as I run up to the mobs and prioritise my AOE moves to lock down them all down. By the time I settle down to the 969 rotation that we recommend, the trash is dead.
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Re: How to help a new guy: Discourse on Instructional Design

Postby yappo » Fri Jul 16, 2010 4:57 am

I'd prefer to go one step further.

Tanking 101 goes before paladin-tanking 101.

We have some people rerolling (or rather converting a "close to" 80 ret/holy pally) tankadins because it's faceroll. They wrongly assume that rerolling tankadin will make horrible tanking habits magically go away, and no spec/gear/talent -guide in the world will help them become a decent tankadin.
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Re: How to help a new guy: Discourse on Instructional Design

Postby theckhd » Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:04 am

In my original conception, "Maintankadin 101" would have covered those "basics of tanking" topics (aggro/threat, facing, etc). I think we've merged that into the Basic FAQ (in concept anyway), but some of these things are even too low level for that. A separate "Tanking 101" post that covers stuff like that might be warranted:

  1. Tanking 101: So you want to get smashed in the face while staring at monster crotch?
  2. Tankadin 101: Basic FAQ.
  3. Tankadin 201: Advanced FAQ.

If someone else wants to write one, that would be grand. I think Knaughty and I will already have our hands full with the Basic/Advanced FAQs. I might feel differently about that if/when I catch up on the MATLAB code and get the FAQs written, but right now I don't want to over-commit.
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Re: How to help a new guy: Discourse on Instructional Design

Postby Arnock » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:59 am

I might actually be interested in the basic "tanking 101" sort of guide. I remember starting to write one for an old guild forum awhile ago, but RL got in the way and I never finished it.
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