[Shaman] Elemental ICC Raiding - Help

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[Shaman] Elemental ICC Raiding - Help

Postby Barathorn » Thu May 06, 2010 6:00 am

Hi all,

this is my alt Keldra and I am currently struggling to squeeze more DPS out of her. I have read all of the threads at EJ and a few other sites and know how to use priority based spells but I am struggling to maintain 5k DPS during an evening of ICC10 raiding [8/12] which frustrates me as I know I can do more than that. My rotation is solid FS/LBurst/LB/LB/CL and then renew FS and prioritise LBurst so is it really just a gear or class issue? Or is it me?

I know her gear isn't awesome, I even have some PVP stuff on because it was better than what I had previously, I also know that the gemming and enchanting isn't 100% right [see staff for uber +stats gem] but that is something that will be done by this weekend along with the 2 drops I got last night which should help a little. I am also in the position to get T10 gloves from EoF for the 2 piece bonus although I am wondering if the helm is the better choice even though the 251 helm dropped last night for me [see sidebar on armory]?

I know I need more haste so that my LBolts are closer to 1 second casts [currently at 1.38 with food buff] but I also want to know if there is anything I can do to crank a few extra hundred DPS out.

Is anyone experianced with elemental shaman and able to lend a hand? I don't think I am miles away from where I should be but I am getting a little frustrated with the lack of DPS.

Cheers,

Barathorn
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Re: [Shaman] Elemental ICC Raiding - Help

Postby Epimer » Thu May 06, 2010 7:37 am

I'm a bit behind on my elemental theorycrafting, but I can think of a couple of things. Firstly, I'm pretty sure you shouldn't have 20 haste gems anywhere in your gear; full haste gemming is for resto shaman. Spellpower gems, or spellpower/haste to pick up socket bonuses (I know you mentioned that gemming and enchanting will change, but that seems to be a fairly systematic thing to update). Rotation: have you played around with Rawr or Team Robot or the Zap! spreadsheet to see what your optimal rotation is for your current haste levels? FS, LvB, LB, LB, CL looks slightly odd to me, but I defer to EJ and/or a spreadsheet. My understanding was that using CL or not is borderline enough that incorrect usage can be a DPS loss, and that it's more normally used after the second LvB (per FS application) rather than before. Again, if anywhere else says otherwise, I'll gladly defer to it.

Glyphs: isn't Glyph of Flame Shock going to do more for you than Glyph of Lava? Again, I defer to established knowledge or spreadsheets if they claim otherwise (I'm out of date). EDIT: EJ tells me that I'm completely, 100% wrong on this one. Ignore me.

Cooldown usage: are you using Elemental Mastery more or less on cooldown? Stacking it with Heroism or using it separately? My understanding is that using it during Heroism isn't a great idea because you risk being haste capped on LB and so wasting some of the usage. The preferred method would therefore be to use it immediately after Heroism. Movement: what are you casting on the move? It can sometimes help to save off on EM for a couple of seconds if you know you're going to have to move very soon, so you at least get an instant LvB or LB off while you're shifting position.

Having a boomkin or shadow priest to provide the 3% hit buff and a demo lock to allow you to drop Searing/Magma totem instead of ToW would be handy, but I appreciate that you really can't count on either of those in a 10 man group unless you're running with the same crew week in, week out.
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Re: [Shaman] Elemental ICC Raiding - Help

Postby Barathorn » Thu May 06, 2010 8:27 am

Epimer wrote:I'm a bit behind on my elemental theorycrafting, but I can think of a couple of things. Firstly, I'm pretty sure you shouldn't have 20 haste gems anywhere in your gear; full haste gemming is for resto shaman. Spellpower gems, or spellpower/haste to pick up socket bonuses (I know you mentioned that gemming and enchanting will change, but that seems to be a fairly systematic thing to update). Rotation: have you played around with Rawr or Team Robot or the Zap! spreadsheet to see what your optimal rotation is for your current haste levels? FS, LvB, LB, LB, CL looks slightly odd to me, but I defer to EJ and/or a spreadsheet. My understanding was that using CL or not is borderline enough that incorrect usage can be a DPS loss, and that it's more normally used after the second LvB (per FS application) rather than before. Again, if anywhere else says otherwise, I'll gladly defer to it.


I haven't looked at any spreadsheets so I will definately do that, excellant idea. I suspect my use of CL is resulting in a slight DPS loss currently so will rectify that as well. If I don't maximise my haste where possible I find I lose @ 500DPS as I cannot get spells off in time under 800 haste vs the other DPS we run with.

I already run with low haste [compared to other Elemental Shaman I know] as it is and my understanding [which may be flawed/out of date] is that spellpower and haste are roughly equal priorities until LB becomes a 1 second cast [at the moment it is 1.38 seconds] and then its spellpower all the way? I will look at changing to SP/Haste gems as an option though, good idea.

Glyphs: isn't Glyph of Flame Shock going to do more for you than Glyph of Lava? Again, I defer to established knowledge or spreadsheets if they claim otherwise (I'm out of date). EDIT: EJ tells me that I'm completely, 100% wrong on this one. Ignore me.


Hehe ok. Glyph of Lava is pretty strong at my gear level according to the sites I have read.

Cooldown usage: are you using Elemental Mastery more or less on cooldown? Stacking it with Heroism or using it separately? My understanding is that using it during Heroism isn't a great idea because you risk being haste capped on LB and so wasting some of the usage. The preferred method would therefore be to use it immediately after Heroism. Movement: what are you casting on the move? It can sometimes help to save off on EM for a couple of seconds if you know you're going to have to move very soon, so you at least get an instant LvB or LB off while you're shifting position.


I use speed potions, heroism and elemental mastery independant of each other so I get the best net gains. I use EM on cooldown to maximise dps already. I will bear in mind for movement fights the EM tip though thanks!

Having a boomkin or shadow priest to provide the 3% hit buff and a demo lock to allow you to drop Searing/Magma totem instead of ToW would be handy, but I appreciate that you really can't count on either of those in a 10 man group unless you're running with the same crew week in, week out.


We do normally have a boomkin, but not a SP or demo warlock. I will try the Searing Totem to see how that works out.

Thanks a lot Epimer.
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Re: [Shaman] Elemental ICC Raiding - Help

Postby Epimer » Thu May 06, 2010 9:50 am

Barathorn wrote:I already run with low haste [compared to other Elemental Shaman I know] as it is and my understanding [which may be flawed/out of date] is that spellpower and haste are roughly equal priorities until LB becomes a 1 second cast [at the moment it is 1.38 seconds] and then its spellpower all the way? I will look at changing to SP/Haste gems as an option though, good idea.


My understanding was that, while there aren't any defined "magic haste marks" while operating under a priority system, SP gemming gives more consistent DPS increases despite the haste/SP equivalence points being broadly similar. I know Enhancement Shaman have a similar(ish) phenomenon whereby full haste gemming/gearing over AP stacking sims out to being superior, but it's more susceptible to "real life" situations mucking you about. Again, if more seasoned casters can weigh in this, go with their opinion (I'm arse-covering so much because Ele is an off-spec I don't get to play much and I don't want to act as if I'm speaking from any kind of position of authority - as the glyph error shows!)

We do normally have a boomkin, but not a SP or demo warlock. I will try the Searing Totem to see how that works out.


I should clarify here; boomkin or shadowpriest provide the 3% hit, whereas demo locks provide a superior SP buff to ToW but not the 3% hit buff that the boomer or spriest would. If you have a boomkin but not a demo lock, it means you can shift 3% hit into some more spellpower if your gearing permits it. However, without a demo lock, it's probably still higher raid-wide DPS for you to drop ToW and take the personal DPS hit from not having Searing Totem down, unfortunately.

Returning to movement - I'm sure you've found this yourself, but efficient movement is absolutely key to maintaining high DPS as elemental. I'm not good at this myself (I don't get much opportunity to practice), but watching your boss timers so you are prepared to absolutely minimise your movement and hence time spent not casting high damage-per-cast spells can be a big help. Since all you can do is spam Flame Shock, refresh Water Shield, re-drop Totems or get off an instant EM'd LvB/LB, you want to aim for bot-like efficiency when you have to move. Probably obvious but worth re-stating for emphasis :)
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Re: [Shaman] Elemental ICC Raiding - Help

Postby Gerunna » Thu May 06, 2010 2:13 pm

First off, here's my Armory, so you can see we're at similar gear levels. In fact, I think I'm even a little behind you, which is what has me puzzled since I'm usually around 7k on bosses.

First off, get the ZAP! spreadsheet here - http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t80396-elemental_zap_spreadsheet/. This is a very powerful tool aside from just estimating your max theoretical dps, it also calculates stat weights and can tell whether or not it's a good idea to break gem socket bonuses, recommending the highest dps gems.

On the topic of gems, pure haste gems are for resto shamans; you'll only want to use spell power / haste orange gems if a) you're hit capped, and b) the socket bonus is good enough to keep. Aside from that, pure spell power gems everywhere except for 2 spellpower / stamina gems to activate the meta.

I know you mentioned upgrading gems, but it looks like you cheaped out a couple of enchants too (chest, cloak, shoulders, and bracers most notably).

Since you have a boomkin in your raid, you are about 100 hit rating over the cap; I'm guessing you were probably at the cap before you got that staff.

Aside from that, all I can add is watch your cooldowns (LvB and EM) and DOT uptime, and always be casting.
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Re: [Shaman] Elemental ICC Raiding - Help

Postby Barathorn » Fri May 07, 2010 12:15 am

I will start changing gems over now as per the recommendations of the spreadsheet. Likewise the enchants will be upgraded ASAP. I have thrown a few gems I had lying around into sockets on new gear but these will most likely be changed upon the recommendations of the spreadsheet.

Thanks for the tips!

Barathorn

/EDIT - Please note I believe the link above from EJ has been compromised and will supply you with a lovely little virus if you download from it.
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Re: [Shaman] Elemental ICC Raiding - Help

Postby Korola » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:44 pm

Hello.

I would like to use this thread (if it's ok with Barathorn) rather than to create a new one. My situation is similar and I would like to submit Xaq to see what I could do to his gear, glyphs, spec, and what items to look for as upgrades.

Things I (think I) know - feel free to correct these

His hit rating is way too high as a result of hurry up looting.

Poor itemization on some of his items (belt, neck, rings) that have mp5 and not haste.

Haste is low - which could be helped by better itemized pieces of gear.

Crit isn't a great stat for elemental, but it is alot better than mp5.

I have one too many purple gems.

The cloak was a waste of 50 frost emblems. I should have picked this up instead for 52,000 honor.

I am told that the 4 pieces of T10 I want are chest, shoulders, head, and legs.

I have this but only this shield to go with it. this is worse but says I ran a heroic or two Should I run the risk of looking like a tool with a world drop epic in ICC? I get more spellpower with the sticker and board, but it sticks out like a sore thumb. I guess here is where I should put aside personal feelings and go straight for the upgrade.

I got extremely lucky on this having ran it only once on my shaman. I was offered 10-20k to sell it on the spot, but I kept it. I imagine I could run it 50 more times and never win a roll on it again. A GDKP would be 20k or more to get it.

I ran things through ZAP! and have read slot of the discussion on EJ. Any pointers would be appreciated. I use quartz for spell timers, and Xperl to keep an eye on the mob buffs/debuffs. I have totems bound to my mouse scroll wheel so I can drop them and pick them up on the run. Any other tips would be appreciated as well.
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Re: [Shaman] Elemental ICC Raiding - Help

Postby Dorvan » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:58 pm

Barathorn wrote:I know her gear isn't awesome, I even have some PVP stuff on because it was better than what I had previously, I also know that the gemming and enchanting isn't 100% right [see staff for uber +stats gem] but that is something that will be done by this weekend along with the 2 drops I got last night which should help a little. I am also in the position to get T10 gloves from EoF for the 2 piece bonus although I am wondering if the helm is the better choice even though the 251 helm dropped last night for me [see sidebar on armory


Small note: as a personal policy, I always buy T10 gloves/legs last. The reason is simple: VoA. Now, when dealing with a 3-spec class like Shaman your chances of getting the exact drop you need *are* pretty slim, but I think the potential savings is worth it if you run VoA on the toon on a regular basis.

edit -- oh no! responding to month and a half help requests ftl, carry on
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Re: [Shaman] Elemental ICC Raiding - Help

Postby Korola » Tue Jun 22, 2010 4:01 pm

I necro'ed his thread because I didn't want to make a new one for mine. Feel free to browse my post above yours :)

And what you said about the gloves/legs are the kind of tips I am looking for.
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Re: [Shaman] Elemental ICC Raiding - Help

Postby Gerunna » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:15 am

@Korola: I think you're mostly on the right track and know what changes need making. Really only a couple of things jump out at me, and they're mostly the stuff you mentioned. Hit and mp5 are both a little high, and haste and crit a little low. This should mostly correct itself as you get access to more spell dps gear and can ditch some of the healer gear (spending EoFs on the healer cloak hurts here) as well as sp/crit/haste replacements for some hit items.

Like you said, you've got 3 sp/stam gems; I'd keep the one in your helm, replace the ones in your cloak and bracers with pure sp, and put a sp/stam gem in the blue socket on either your chest or legs to activate a better socket bonus.

The Talisman of Resurgence is a pretty weak option for elemental. I'd suggest if you don't have any other good options, go farm normal ToC5 for the Abyssal Rune. The proc is essentially equivalent uptime to the Talisman's on use bonus, plus you're getting a ton of haste instead of wasted int. And like you mentioned, RotU is pretty sweet.

As far as which T10 pieces to buy, I've really only looked at the lvl251 pieces as I'm only running 10 man normal modes. The set helm and shoulders are definite buys for me, but the chest is only a very minor upgrade over my Merlin's Robe. But to complicate things, there are some very nice offset items for the hand and leg slots: cloth, leather, or mail EoF gloves vs T10, and cloth or mail crafted legs vs T10. To me it's a toss up on which T10 piece to get out of either the legs or gloves. I'll probably just take Dorvan's advice and hope I luck out in VoA for one of those slots and go offset in the other.

If you aren't married to the idea of wearing a shield but still want to use your 1 hander, I'd suggest running heroic HoR for the Shriveled Heart. It's got all the stats you want, and seriously, who doesn't love maracas?
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Re: [Shaman] Elemental ICC Raiding - Help

Postby Korola » Wed Jun 23, 2010 10:25 am

Thank you for the insight Gerunna. I made the mistake on the cloak before I read any information about how low crit is rated to haste (at my level of haste that is - and I don't completely understand at what level crit becomes more weighted, but I will rely on ZAP! to guide me there). I have always looked at MP5 as a decent stat (disc priest, holy pally) but didn't realize how hurtful it is on caster gear. The wasted itemization because of the lack of mana problems cause this I imagine. I will kick myself for having that cloak for a while. I have the Abyssal Rune in my bags and will toss it back in the second slot. Going to add HHoR to my list of dailies as the Shriveled Heart looks like it is perfectly itemized. I thought that before I make any more huge mistakes I would check here. Thanks again.
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Re: [Shaman] Elemental ICC Raiding - Help

Postby Gerunna » Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:48 am

Korola wrote:The wasted itemization because of the lack of mana problems cause this I imagine.


Yep, this exactly. With just Water Shield, Thunderstorm, and points in Unrelenting Storm your mana bar should barely budge from the 80%-100% range unless you start going crazy with resetting totems, Chain Lightning, Magma Totem, or Fire Nova, so in a raid situation with Replenishment, JoW, BoW, and Revitalize you can see that mp5 really loses its value.
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Re: [Shaman] Elemental ICC Raiding - Help

Postby Barathorn » Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:39 am

Things appear to have got a little better lately with a few lucky drops and some hours of practise on the dummies. I still can't get anywhere near Warlocks or Mages but I am fairly comfortable with my own DPS now. There is always room for improvement however!

I must stress the only reason I took the T10 options I did was because I already had 251 items [upgraded from 219] in the usual two spots.

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Re: [Shaman] Elemental ICC Raiding - Help

Postby Korola » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:01 pm

Gonna get my feet wet this weekend with the shaman. Hopefully I can find a decent PuG to run with. Will try again tonight for the Shriveled Heart as it has the right budget for that slot, and use my honor points on the pvp cloak. I hit 6.5k dps on Jaxx and 7.5k dps on twins in ToC 25 - which was not alot compared with the 18k dps warlock :lol:

I think I should be ok though. I was originally worried about movement fights, but he does better than I thought. I have been spoiled by the pally, disc priest, and SV hunter. They all have incredible mobility. Is it bad if I cast fire shock when I have to move?
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