Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby blakk » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:41 am

Vorianloken wrote:Could just be me but is a frost tank even viable for sindragosa given that debuff you get? My DK is nowhere close to sindragosa but a conversation I had with a friend a while back basically boiled down to that frost DKs (whether tank or dps) were disadvantaged on the fight precisely because of that stacking debuff.

So are rogues, feral druids, and enhancement shaman Having done both unholy and frost on sindragossa the difference is really minor. P3 is the only part where there is even a minor difference and there is enough time off the boss for frost to not have an issue. Ive only seen her on 10m normal though so thats the limit of my experience.
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby Shoju » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:43 am

I haven't tanked it for anecdotal evidence, but I would assume that Anti Magic Shell (used as a cooldown on breaths) would provide them with another way of resetting the stacks which are magic debuff based.
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby blakk » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:47 am

Shoju wrote:I haven't tanked it for anecdotal evidence, but I would assume that Anti Magic Shell (used as a cooldown on breaths) would provide them with another way of resetting the stacks which are magic debuff based.

This does not reset mystic buffet or prefent the application of the debuff stacking when you attack(forget the name) you can however stop attacking with a really high stack and use this to take little damage from the stack wearing off (similar to shadow priests usind dispersion)
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby Vorianloken » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:59 am

Shoju wrote:I haven't tanked it for anecdotal evidence, but I would assume that Anti Magic Shell (used as a cooldown on breaths) would provide them with another way of resetting the stacks which are magic debuff based.


Ah yes. I keep forgetting that AMS can reset some magic debuffs like that.

EDIT: saw Blakk's post.
Vorianloken - 80 Prot/Ret || Ajeet - 80 Frost Tank/Unholy DPS || Nunnaly - 80 Cat/Tree Druid || Bulveye - 74 Protection Warrior || Sherana - 80 Combat Rogue || Shadallas - 40 Demo Warlock

US-Medivh Power! 7th April 2010 - The day when Dual-Wield Frost Tanking was assassinated. R.I.P my dear friend.
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby Shoju » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:07 am

Wow. I would have thought that it would have prevented the debuff since it is magic in origin. I guess since the magic is on the boss, and creates the debuff on you, it gets around it.
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby blakk » Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:10 am

Shoju wrote:Wow. I would have thought that it would have prevented the debuff since it is magic in origin. I guess since the magic is on the boss, and creates the debuff on you, it gets around it.

It would be an encounter killer if it worked on every magic debuff. Blizzard sets which debuffs can be avoided with ams. Too many of blizzards key mechanics are magic debuffs (rune of blood, mystic buffet, etc.)
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby Hokahey » Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:09 pm

Jesus, long post.
Shoju wrote:While IT spam will allow you to keep threat, and wear two tank weapons for the increased survivability:

Where is the situation going to come up where you NEED dual tank weapons for the increased survivabilty?
Putricide HM?
Sindragosa HM?
LK HM?


Actually, I think encounter difficulty is only part of the equation. Encounter mechanics, raid composition, and skill of the raid's DPS and healers both individually and collectively will also be of vital importance in determining how you should most appropriately gear.

For example, a standard "tank and spank" encounter, where at least a portion of the raid's DPS will be constantly committed to only killing the boss, threat capping that DPS on the boss is a larger concern. Even moreso if your raid lacks Hunters or Rogues. Whether it trumps the added survivability may come down to what your healers can handle, and how much leeway your gear allows in pursuing threat over survivability.

I agree that IT spam seems cheap, but it opens up options gearwise that are unique. I don't go out of my way to do it, and I don't have threat problems, but in the standard Heroics/weekly/VoA alt stuff I end up doing on my DK, I wouldn't expect to be challenged all that often anyhow. In endgame hardmode raids, where you and your group are unlikely to outgear content the moment you see it, I have to imagine it could become crucial.

Shoju wrote:is the DPS that you would lose from using this be a negative in the long run?

I don't think it would be, but I don't have any hard numbers on the DPS loss by going to IT spam.


Or the DPS gained by raising the threat ceiling on your raid's DPS in that fashion, versus the threat difference made by simply equipping a slower weapon in MH, or both hands.

Shoju wrote:Is the gain in survivability going to be large enough to warrant moving from a DPS weapon to a tank weapon?

I'm not sure.

My instinct as a tank says every gain of survivability, where surviving the encounter as a tank is legitimately in question, is worth losing a lot of threat for. The problem, of course, is whether or not you can honestly say your survivability will be reasonably taxed.

Shoju wrote:I could see using
Ardent Guard x2 for several fights. But these are going to be 32 ilvls behind current weapons, which would then prompt the question: Would a tank wearing these, EVEN with IT spam be able to hold off threat against top tier dpsers? Yes, I know, the DPS should know to not overrun the tank on threat. The question would then become: Could you wear both of these, and use a IT heavy rotation and allow your dpsers to put out enough threat to beat the enrage/soft enrage/fight mechanic that will cause a wipe?


Arguably, yes, I'd say you could be okay threatwise, depending on fight mechanics, group composition, and possibly your co-tank. Same with the others. Unfortunately, there isn't a universal blanket rule to tell us what's best. Each individual raid will need more of 1 particular thing than the other. The neat thing is, Frost DW allows more room for that type of customization possibly than any other class/spec.

Shoju wrote:We aren't into hard modes yet, we are still working on LK, but our problems have not been tank death, they have been movement/execution related.


Same here, with rare exceptions that were usually stemming directly from poor execution, and not so much the tank's decision to be more threat oriented. My understanding is HM changes that to some degree.

Shoju wrote:I've seriously spent a lot of time getting this post together, making sure that I researched the weapons, researched the EH, and editing the post to make sure that the questions/statements/and opinions were all posed in a manner to promote a legitimate civil discussion. There are no personal attacks here, so if you feel the need to respond to this post, I would appreciate the same considerations be made.


I think you did a good job of it. Unfortunately, I gave more non-answers than answers.
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