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Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

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Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby Minnerva » Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:00 pm

is frost dw tanking good for tanking ICC? if so what stats should i focus on getting to make it work?
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby Gracerath » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:00 am

Well, it stands a chance until Cataclysm. Just gear like you would with any other tank spec and use two good slow dps 1hers with the tank runeforge on them.

Get your defense minimum, then gem for stam, dodge/stam, hit/stam, expertise/stam, whatever your gear seems to be lacking. Or just go pure stam. Same ol song and dance.

EDIT: Specified for a slow dps weapon.
Last edited by Gracerath on Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby Vorianloken » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:15 am

Gearing is the same as blood except you need less hit due to the talent that gives you hit and increases offhand damage.

Use slow dps weapons as they offer the most threat and runeforge with nerubican carapace. Your expertise needs are the same as anyone else's.

If you DO want to use tank weapons (although I will not recommend it as it offers subpar threat) then you need a minimum of 30 expertise to stay as competitive as a slow dps 1h frost tank. Still enchant with Nerubian Carapace. Swordbreaking is a horrible runeforge for tanking compared to the alternative.
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby Levantine » Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:57 am

I'm getting pretty bored with all these people that say you neeeeed this or you neeeeed that to go fast/fast.

If you feel you need the added defensive stats of two fast tanking weapons (my personal preference is just a slow mh with a tank offhand), it's perfectly acceptable (caveat: you have to know DK mechanics and how to compensate for the lower strike damage. i.e. Moar Icy Touch). Your dps will be less, but if you're in a situation where you're striving for maximum survivability something tells me your personal dps isn't at the top of your priority list.
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby blakk » Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:42 am

the only difference between frost and the other builds is you have the option of using dps weapons or tank weapons. threat problems do not exist for death knights so it honestly doesn't matter. basically if you're not holding threat single target throw more icy touch.
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby Levantine » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:08 pm

blakk wrote:the only difference between frost and the other builds is you have the option of using dps weapons or tank weapons. threat problems do not exist for death knights so it honestly doesn't matter. basically if you're not holding threat single target throw more icy touch.


<3

(It's also a different playstyle, but that's neither here nor there. Threat problems from fast/fast are a myth)
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby blakk » Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:09 pm

Levantine wrote:
blakk wrote:the only difference between frost and the other builds is you have the option of using dps weapons or tank weapons. threat problems do not exist for death knights so it honestly doesn't matter. basically if you're not holding threat single target throw more icy touch.


<3

(It's also a different playstyle, but that's neither here nor there. Threat problems from fast/fast are a myth)

the "slow dps weapons" was true before the change to icy touch though. you needed at least one slow weapon in the main hand unless your dps were mouthbreathers

edit: only thing i dislike about frost is the armor cap but if you're fighting with it you probably don't need better gear anyway
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby Levantine » Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:06 pm

Oh, it definitely was a legitimate concern, last patch. This is this patch, and it irks me that people don't even keep up to date with classes they supposedly play and spread misinformation regarding it.
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby blakk » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:00 pm

Levantine wrote:Oh, it definitely was a legitimate concern, last patch. This is this patch, and it irks me that people don't even keep up to date with classes they supposedly play and spread misinformation regarding it.

Good thing I don't spread misinformation. I'd hate to be on your bad side lev.
Plus I love your hearts.
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby Levantine » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:04 pm

<3
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby blakk » Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:47 pm

<3
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby cds4850 » Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:03 am

Levantine wrote:Oh, it definitely was a legitimate concern, last patch. This is this patch, and it irks me that people don't even keep up to date with classes they supposedly play and spread misinformation regarding it.

BINGO... I just posted an iteration of this in the low level DK tanking thread.
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby cerwillis » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:24 am

cds4850 wrote:
Levantine wrote:Oh, it definitely was a legitimate concern, last patch. This is this patch, and it irks me that people don't even keep up to date with classes they supposedly play and spread misinformation regarding it.

BINGO... I just posted an iteration of this in the low level DK tanking thread.


I still like my 2x Tankard O Terror :D
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby Shoju » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:53 am

Levantine wrote:Oh, it definitely was a legitimate concern, last patch. This is this patch, and it irks me that people don't even keep up to date with classes they supposedly play and spread misinformation regarding it.


Ok, so this is a serious question here, meant to spark serious disucssion.

While IT spam will allow you to keep threat, and wear two tank weapons for the increased survivability:

Where is the situation going to come up where you NEED dual tank weapons for the increased survivabilty?
Putricide HM?
Sindragosa HM?
LK HM?

These seem to be the 'hardest' Hard Modes. I can't say from a personal perspective, as I'm not there yet on my main, let alone on an alt.

You are right that you can definitely go with the higher threat IT heavy rotation and maintain threat for a situation like this, I personally don't feel that using the IT heavy playstyle is a 'good' way to go about doing things either. It 'works' but it just feels incredibly clunky, among other things.

Coming from the perspective that we want people to play the class to the fullest potential, I don't think that promoting a single ability 'spammy' rotation is a good thing either. I look at promoting an IT heavy rotation in a similar light to what you look at me not making sure that I line up every KM proc for Howling Blast.

But, Since this is an acceptable way to play here are the questions that I feel need to be answered

is the DPS that you would lose from using this be a negative in the long run?

I don't think it would be, but I don't have any hard numbers on the DPS loss by going to IT spam.

Is the gain in survivability going to be large enough to warrant moving from a DPS weapon to a tank weapon?

I'm not sure.

Let's assume that you are in a Hard Core guild and you need to stack 2x tank weapons for your guilds attempts on HMLK25, or Sindragosa HM.

We'll say that you have been fortunate enough that you have a pair of every dps and tank weapon available in 10, 10hm, 25, and 25hm save the weapons from LK25HM, and that you have the tank weapons from ToC10HM (armor) and ToC25HM chests. I will even include the PvP weapons, though we don't 'need' to.

That would give you access to

Tank Weapons
Ardent Guard
Orgim's Deflector
Bonebreaker Scepter
The Facelifter
Troggbane, Axe of the Frozen King
Last Word

DPS Weapons
Frost Giant's Cleaver
Gutbuster
Soulbreaker
Bloodvenom Blade

PvP Weapons
PvP axe Stats are the same on all, so this will cover the axe/mace/sword.


Is there a setup of dual tank weapons that is going to provide such a massive boost to you that you would sacrifice the threat to go with dual tank weapons?

I could see using
Ardent Guard x2 for several fights. But these are going to be 32 ilvls behind current weapons, which would then prompt the question: Would a tank wearing these, EVEN with IT spam be able to hold off threat against top tier dpsers? Yes, I know, the DPS should know to not overrun the tank on threat. The question would then become: Could you wear both of these, and use a IT heavy rotation and allow your dpsers to put out enough threat to beat the enrage/soft enrage/fight mechanic that will cause a wipe?

I could see using
The Facelifter x2 on a fight like Sindragosa HM where you are probably going to be wearing a fair bit of frost resistance, and these blades would get you close to expertise cap while maintaining a high level of frost resist.

Would you want to use
Last Wordx2? I don't think the buff stacks with itself. If it does, feel free to correct me if i am wrong here.

I'm sure that you could put together a set of those in some way shape or form so that you could still stack threat
(The Facelifter plus Ardent Guard comes to mind)

As far as, outside of DW-ing the PvP weapon,

2xTroggbane, Axe of the Frozen King Gives the best Stamina,
2xArdent Guard Gives the best 'standard' EH
A combination of The Facelifter, Last Word, Bonebreaker Scepter gives the best threat (based on your hit/expertise cap situation}
and 2xTroggbane, Axe of the Frozen King comes back and wins the most avoidance.

Would any one situation currently available be enough to trump using 2x DPS weapons, or 1 of the dps weapons and 1 of the tank weapons?

At least in the content that I'm running on my main, the only time I could see using 2xThe Facelifter for work on Sindragosa on a night where I need to wear frost resist. I don't imagine this happening as all of our sindragosa kills have come sans frost resist gear.

We aren't into hard modes yet, we are still working on LK, but our problems have not been tank death, they have been movement/execution related.

I've seriously spent a lot of time getting this post together, making sure that I researched the weapons, researched the EH, and editing the post to make sure that the questions/statements/and opinions were all posed in a manner to promote a legitimate civil discussion. There are no personal attacks here, so if you feel the need to respond to this post, I would appreciate the same considerations be made.
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Re: Frost DW tanking, does it stand a chance?

Postby Vorianloken » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:20 am

Could just be me but is a frost tank even viable for sindragosa given that debuff you get? My DK is nowhere close to sindragosa but a conversation I had with a friend a while back basically boiled down to that frost DKs (whether tank or dps) were disadvantaged on the fight precisely because of that stacking debuff.
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US-Medivh Power! 7th April 2010 - The day when Dual-Wield Frost Tanking was assassinated. R.I.P my dear friend.
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