Threat Mechanics Issues?

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Threat Mechanics Issues?

Postby Fatkenyna23 » Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:11 pm

I know i'm doing something wrong, i'm just not sure what i doing.
The warriors i tank with out threat me like its their job. I cant use the excuse that its my gear either because my armory is as follows http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... cn=Leapold.
This is my usually tank set but i have other sets to try and maximize my threat. With SoV i am at expertise soft cap and i am just under hit cap with 7.68%.

I don't have a problem with tanking just one mob but when it comes to multiple mobs my initial threat is very low.
Here is a parse from Lich King where DPS had to constantly back off on raging spirits.

I use the 696 rotation using other things such as HW and AS while when up but, I find myself dependent on using them on TPS but when i comes to situational things, i run into trouble. Then ToT's and MD's become are needed to not lose threat.

Am i missing anything?
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Re: Threat Mechanics Issues?

Postby Mert » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:18 am

Raging Spirits are a massive pain when you have well-geared DPS because of the fact they silence you. Even if you're getting cleansed straight away you're still losing a global out of it. If you avoid tanking more than one at a time (except for going into Phase 2/3) then you can reduce the frequency of getting silenced which should be a threat boost. The way we do it is:

Code: Select all
       
        melee
OT - RS
        RS
         |
        MT


We have the OT pick up the first and third Spirit (first transition) and the MT take the second - this greatly reduces the time when any Spirits are overlapping, which stops you getting silenced too often.

For the second transition, we vary it slightly - the MT takes the first and the OT takes the second - then, when the first one goes down, the MT taunts the second one and the OT takes the third and fourth and moves them into position for Phase 3.
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Re: Threat Mechanics Issues?

Postby Boyfriend » Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:45 am

It is entirely possible to have your warrior friend tank all the raging spirits, I don't mean to say paladins can't do it; but there's no particular reason TO do it. If your warrior friend tanks all, you can also cleanse him and ensure that his taunt is ready and available at all times.

When I use LK spec with my survival ilevel 245 weapon, I wouldn't dream of tanking raging spirits; I think I'd generate negative threat.
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Re: Threat Mechanics Issues?

Postby hoho » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:02 am

Big part of the problem also is that warriors generate loads of threat automatically. They can still use HS when silenced, pala only has autoattack and seal.
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Re: Threat Mechanics Issues?

Postby theckhd » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:34 am

hoho wrote:Big part of the problem also is that warriors generate loads of threat automatically. They can still use HS when silenced, pala only has autoattack and seal.

And HotR.


I've done it in my LK spec during our 10-man attempts, and it wasn't too bad. But I'm always picking up the third spirit during the first transition phase, so I get some time to build a threat lead.
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Re: Threat Mechanics Issues?

Postby duriek » Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:16 am

Fatkenyna23 wrote:I know i'm doing something wrong, i'm just not sure what i doing.
The warriors i tank with out threat me like its their job. I cant use the excuse that its my gear either because my armory is as follows http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... cn=Leapold.
This is my usually tank set but i have other sets to try and maximize my threat. With SoV i am at expertise soft cap and i am just under hit cap with 7.68%.

I don't have a problem with tanking just one mob but when it comes to multiple mobs my initial threat is very low.
Here is a parse from Lich King where DPS had to constantly back off on raging spirits.

I use the 696 rotation using other things such as HW and AS while when up but, I find myself dependent on using them on TPS but when i comes to situational things, i run into trouble. Then ToT's and MD's become are needed to not lose threat.

Am i missing anything?

Typically you should have a rogue/hunter misdirecting the raging spirit to you anyway. It shouldn't be used as a contingency plan for the raging spirits but rather part of the normal strategy. The raging spirits do get quite annoying when they silence you but you should be getting dispelled almost immediately. If not then threat becomes even more of an issue.

The only advice I can give you is to tell you how I pick those things up. I'll go through it step by step:

1) I usually wait about half a second to taunt after it spawns
2) Go all "Captain America!!" aka Aveneger's shield (It does more threat if you actually scream "CAPTAIN AMERICA!!" when you do it. I swear.)
3) Smack it with a HotR
4) Slap it with your SoR
5) Judgement of X
6) Drop a consecrate
7) Enter your normal 969 rotation until it dies or you need to pick up another one

^^ I believe that steps 3-6 are the best way to get as much burst threat as possible when the mob gets into melee range before entering a 969 rotation (given that the person has 2pc T10) but I may be mistaken or I may have misinterpreted some of Theck's TPS calculations. Can anyone confirm this? **Looks at Theck**

In the first transition phase I usually pick up the second raging spirit and the other tank obviously gets #1 and #3 and in the second transition I get #2 and #4. We usually have enough people so that each tank has a misdirect on every spirit and the dispells are spot on when we get silenced so it's never really been a problem for us.

TL;DR; - You should be getting misdirects and dispells on a regular basis. When these things don't occur it really reduces your threat on those things and increases the probability that they'll turn around and smack a melee or decide to run rampant and silence half your raid. Also, follow those steps when picking up a spirit and your threat issues should disappear.
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Re: Threat Mechanics Issues?

Postby inthedrops » Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:37 am

I absolutely HATE WITH A PASSION the Raging Spirits phases. They really do suck balls. They just piss me off. Especially the occasional "I taunted after it spawned but it stil turned and whacked someone before running to me". And no, I wasn't silenced. I swear there's a bug there.....anyway, back to the topic.

* As someone above said, MD's and Tricks aren't optional. They're required.
* Try to have the other tank tanking as many as possible, and you can spam cleanse them saving a healer or ret paladin the trouble. When we do Heroic 10/25 I tank LK in P1. As soon as the other tank (Warrior) is free from diseases he takes over all the remaining RS's. He also takes them ALL for the second transition onto the ledge. All I do in those phases besides tanking the initial RS or two is taunt new RS's (solely as a redundent backup), stand in a place that won't chain LK's cone damage, and dispell the other tank.
* On 25 man we have one warlock with a felhunter who dispells me. Works out really well.

But you're not looking for those kinds of tips, you're trying to improve actual threat on RS's...

* First, one thing I've noticed is that due to a little bit of client/server latency, you can often get an ability off just a hair after the RS silences you. It might just be me but I can usually squeeze out another GCD.
* When you get silenced, you ARE going to lose a GCD unless HotR was used at the same moment and your dispellers are quick. So you need to get good at using the next best ability. Basically, don't use ever use Holy Shield if Consecrate or Judgement are available.
* Get good at watching when you're dispelled and during the second or two that you are, knowing which abilitiy you will use once it's gone. After a second goes by, and you're still silenced, you might find that ShoR will be the next best move for example.

Basically, you can't do 969 on the Raging Spirits for any length of time. A silence WILL break the rotation. Get good at correcting it after each silence. Have a good tricks/md plan. Know who dispells you and ensure they know the most dangerous times which you need dispelling.
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Re: Threat Mechanics Issues?

Postby duriek » Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:32 am

inthedrops wrote:"I taunted after it spawned but it stil turned and whacked someone before running to me". And no, I wasn't silenced. I swear there's a bug there.....anyway, back to the topic.

Just wanted to clarify something about this. I believe the spirits have an aggro reset (or don't even respond to any aggro producing abilities) until AFTER the animation of them spawning is complete. That used to happen to me quite often and I did some research on it. After figuring out that I had to wait until the animation of them spawning was complete I started to wait about half a second to taunt it or smack it. Never had any issues since.
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Re: Threat Mechanics Issues?

Postby theckhd » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:33 am

panac7 wrote:^^ I believe that steps 3-6 are the best way to get as much burst threat as possible when the mob gets into melee range before entering a 969 rotation (given that the person has 2pc T10) but I may be mistaken or I may have misinterpreted some of Theck's TPS calculations. Can anyone confirm this? **Looks at Theck**

You'll eke out slightly more threat by dropping Consecrate during the spawn animation, so that you get a few ticks in while you're beating on it. That doesn't really change your list much, just moves Consecrate to line 0 and puts HS in line 6. You can also pre-cast Holy Shield before Cons for more damage.

Also note that HotR or ShoR should both hit for more than AS at LK-appropriate gear levels. So if it spawns within melee range of you, just skip AS and go right into HotR/ShoR. The only reason to use AS would be if it spawns far enough away that it has to travel to you, in which case you'll have an extra GCD that would otherwise be empty.
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Re: Threat Mechanics Issues?

Postby duriek » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:00 am

theckhd wrote:
panac7 wrote:^^ I believe that steps 3-6 are the best way to get as much burst threat as possible when the mob gets into melee range before entering a 969 rotation (given that the person has 2pc T10) but I may be mistaken or I may have misinterpreted some of Theck's TPS calculations. Can anyone confirm this? **Looks at Theck**

You'll eke out slightly more threat by dropping Consecrate during the spawn animation, so that you get a few ticks in while you're beating on it. That doesn't really change your list much, just moves Consecrate to line 0 and puts HS in line 6. You can also pre-cast Holy Shield before Cons for more damage.

Also note that HotR or ShoR should both hit for more than AS at LK-appropriate gear levels. So if it spawns within melee range of you, just skip AS and go right into HotR/ShoR. The only reason to use AS would be if it spawns far enough away that it has to travel to you, in which case you'll have an extra GCD that would otherwise be empty.

Yeah that makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
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Re: Threat Mechanics Issues?

Postby Chicken » Wed Jun 09, 2010 3:35 am

theckhd wrote:
panac7 wrote:^^ I believe that steps 3-6 are the best way to get as much burst threat as possible when the mob gets into melee range before entering a 969 rotation (given that the person has 2pc T10) but I may be mistaken or I may have misinterpreted some of Theck's TPS calculations. Can anyone confirm this? **Looks at Theck**

You'll eke out slightly more threat by dropping Consecrate during the spawn animation, so that you get a few ticks in while you're beating on it. That doesn't really change your list much, just moves Consecrate to line 0 and puts HS in line 6. You can also pre-cast Holy Shield before Cons for more damage.

Also note that HotR or ShoR should both hit for more than AS at LK-appropriate gear levels. So if it spawns within melee range of you, just skip AS and go right into HotR/ShoR. The only reason to use AS would be if it spawns far enough away that it has to travel to you, in which case you'll have an extra GCD that would otherwise be empty.
How does Exorcism compare in the specific situation where something is far enough away so that it won't reach you before the cast is over and nothing else is attacking you? In ICC at least the damage (And thus threat) shouldn't be too bad due to automatic critical hit against undead targets. There's already a few fights where I find the ability usable in addition to Avenger's Shield*, but I've never really looked into which of the two is (in general) the better choice. Exorcism does have the downside of being considered a spell for it's miss chance I suppose, which should generally mean it misses more often than Avenger's Shield does.

It's a bit of a specialized question though, since situations where you can safely use Exorcism are pretty rare, they do frequently come up at about the same time that you'd normally use Avenger's Shield though.

*Blood Queen Lanathel, both when she bites a ranged dps early on in the fight, and when she runs back to you after a flight phase for instance; Avenger's Shield is also a standard go to ability here but I typically always have it on cooldown after a flight phase as I use it when she jumps to the middle.

Edit:
Doing some checking it seems that Exorcism is the better choice if we ignore the higher chance to miss, unless you have glyphed Avenger's Shield but I don't think most of us would do so. Apparently just because it isn't in the pretty graphs over in the MATLAB thread doesn't mean it isn't modeled at all.

But that's if you ignore the higher miss chance, now that's mostly an issue on level 83 targets or bosses since spells get a very large increase in their chance to miss going level 82 to level 83 targets. Avenger's Shield is always going to the more reliable of the two because of that. But if you can safely cast it and don't have to worry about the chance to miss Exorcism is the higher damage option of the two on a single target it seems. But since I want to be extremely sure not to mislead anyone into using the ability when something is near them:

Never, ever use Exorcism when something is hitting you. When you're casting a spell you can't block, dodge or parry attacks at all and that is a very bad thing. Casting a spell also prevents you from auto-attacking and getting seal procs that way, so it's likely a worse option for damage/threat when you're in melee range of your target too.

Second edit:

Another concern I just remembered with Exorcism over Avenger's Shield. Exorcism, having a cast time, resets your swing timer. Now you might think that isn't really going to matter because if you are using Exorcism, whatever you're using it on is some distance away from you. But if you have a mob targeted and walk up next to them you'll normally swing immediately (Just try it with a slow two-hander).

So if your weapon speed as well as the distance to your target and the movement speed of your target also weigh in to which of the two is the better option. The latter of the two simply influence the time it takes before your target reaches you, while your weapon speed will influence whether that time is enough to not make Exorcism cost you [a part of] a swing.

That's definitely an argument that's often going to be in favor of Avenger's Shield, but I already knew Exorcism was situational. The time it takes for a mob to get back to you is something interesting to monitor and apply in these situations though, since the time it takes for not even the smallest part of a swing to be lost when using Exorcism is in fact the Exorcism cast time with your swing speed added to it. With a typical 1.6 tanking weapon and standard raid haste buffs (20% melee haste, 5% spell haste, 3% melee+spell haste) that's ~2.7 seconds. For a typical 2.6 speed dps weapon instead that comes to 3.5 seconds. Both of those are fairly long considering the movement speed of most mobs, but it's still usable in some situations at least, the use on Blood Queen Lanathel I mentioned above should typically be safe as you can start casting Exorcism while her landing animation is still playing but after all the Bloodbolts have been fired.
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Re: Threat Mechanics Issues?

Postby theckhd » Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:29 am

The Damage/Threat analysis includes Exorcism, but it's not on any of the graphs:

Code: Select all
    Ability  Raw Dmg.  Net Dmg.   Glyphed   Net Threat   Glyphed
    ShoR       3608      3833         0       9866          0   
    HotR       4294      4561         0      11740          0   
    Cons       4755      4197         0      10803          0   
    JoV        2628      3023      3326       7781       8561   
    JoC        1300      1495         0       3848          0   
    JoR        2516      2895         0       7452          0   
    AS         2391      2750      5501       7079      14160   
    HoW        3250      3739         0       9624          0   
    SoV         502       590         0       1519          0   
    SoC         547       582         0       1498          0   
    SoR         506       480         0       1236          0   
    HV         6239      5914         0      15223          0   
    HS         1281      1131         0       2911          0   
    Exor       3103      3071         0       7905          0   
    Melee      1346       953         0       1363          0   


Even after the miss chance is included, Exorcism is slightly ahead of AS on boss-level targets (2750 dmg for AS, 3071 dmg for Exorcism). Note that Exorcism will fluctuate more noticeably with hit rating than AS as well. At low hit, I'd expect them to be pretty close.

For an undead target, Exorcism would be noticeably ahead at a reasonable level of hit rating. That said, the melee swing timer reset is a non-trivial issue, as you pointed out. You get around 1550 damage from a melee swing + seal proc in that gear set.

About the only times i could see making effective use out of it are BQL (as you pointed out) and Sindragosa (while she's doing her landing animation), because in both cases you have 5-6 seconds of time where you can't melee her anyhow.

To be honest, I don't think I've even cast exorcism in months. It's just so situational that I basically forget about it. I'm probably better off using those GCDs to remember to refresh SS and Divine Plea.
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