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Making Gold on the AH

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Re: Making Gold on the AH

Postby rodos » Thu May 27, 2010 5:55 pm

daemonym wrote:
Arnock wrote:well, just powerleveled my aspiring lock up to 315 tailoring, at he wont be a gold sink anymore.


Unfortunately, netherweave bags aren't nearly as hot as they were on arthas. 4-5g stacks of cloth and 8-10g bags. Still decent though.


Decent? Hell I got excited as hell when I got 3g profit from a bag. I pay 4g for the cloth as well and normal price is 6-7g. The thing is though, If I list 40 bags for 24 hours, only 4 or so won't get bought and the rest were turned into shiney gold coins.

There's seriously a war going on in netherweave bags on Lightbringer. Two stacks of netherweave up for 4g (3.99 seems to be the snatch price for the crafters), and one guy alone has 145+ bags listed at 5g each. I really don't think the market has that much turnover in it. With 75s profit after AH cut, and 30s deposit, he'll have to sell at least 1/3 of them to make any money at all, and even then it will be a pittance compared to the time and hassle of crafting and posting 145 bags.

On a related topic, anyone know a good market for Frosweave cloth? I have about a whole bank tab full of the stuff. I can't find anything that can DE for a profit, and frostweave bags are pretty much as dead as netherweave bags.
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Re: Making Gold on the AH

Postby daemonym » Thu May 27, 2010 6:03 pm

rodos wrote:
daemonym wrote:
Arnock wrote:well, just powerleveled my aspiring lock up to 315 tailoring, at he wont be a gold sink anymore.


Unfortunately, netherweave bags aren't nearly as hot as they were on arthas. 4-5g stacks of cloth and 8-10g bags. Still decent though.


Decent? Hell I got excited as hell when I got 3g profit from a bag. I pay 4g for the cloth as well and normal price is 6-7g. The thing is though, If I list 40 bags for 24 hours, only 4 or so won't get bought and the rest were turned into shiney gold coins.

There's seriously a war going on in netherweave bags on Lightbringer. Two stacks of netherweave up for 4g (3.99 seems to be the snatch price for the crafters), and one guy alone has 145+ bags listed at 5g each. I really don't think the market has that much turnover in it. With 75s profit after AH cut, and 30s deposit, he'll have to sell at least 1/3 of them to make any money at all, and even then it will be a pittance compared to the time and hassle of crafting and posting 145 bags.

On a related topic, anyone know a good market for Frosweave cloth? I have about a whole bank tab full of the stuff. I can't find anything that can DE for a profit, and frostweave bags are pretty much as dead as netherweave bags.


Turn the frostweave into bolts, pick up a bunch of infinite dust and eternal fire/shadow and make them into imbued, then find a properly specced tailor to make a ton of spell/ebon weave. Don't bother with moonshroud, in my experience it moves far too slow. If you want to take it a step further craft a few merlin's robes.

And I agree that frost bags aren't worth the effort. To level tailoring from 440-450 that's the only practical recipe for most people so in their (incredibly pointless) desperation to max out a profession (of which has no need to be maxed) they'll spend hundreds of gold making thousands of frost mags and leaves the AH flooded 99% of the time.
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Re: Making Gold on the AH

Postby Dorvan » Thu May 27, 2010 6:15 pm

daemonym wrote:And I agree that frost bags aren't worth the effort. To level tailoring from 440-450 that's the only practical recipe for most people so in their (incredibly pointless) desperation to max out a profession (of which has no need to be maxed) they'll spend hundreds of gold making thousands of frost mags and leaves the AH flooded 99% of the time.


Actually there are 16 recipes that require max level tailoring, so I'd debate your contention that there is no need to have tailoring maxed.
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Re: Making Gold on the AH

Postby daemonym » Thu May 27, 2010 6:27 pm

Dorvan wrote:
daemonym wrote:And I agree that frost bags aren't worth the effort. To level tailoring from 440-450 that's the only practical recipe for most people so in their (incredibly pointless) desperation to max out a profession (of which has no need to be maxed) they'll spend hundreds of gold making thousands of frost mags and leaves the AH flooded 99% of the time.


Actually there are 16 recipes that require max level tailoring, so I'd debate your contention that there is no need to have tailoring maxed.


There are indeed recipes that need max tailoring yes. But think of this though, of all the tailors in all of wow how many will ever learn those recipes? And out of them all, how many will actually craft them? Or the few that do craft them how much will they get in tips? Probably half of what they could get by selling the recipe if it's boe.I count anything that sits there and does nothing as being worth nothing.

You can say that coalitionists do get something out of it though, entertainment and a sense of enjoyment. But most people just want something just to have it and no other reason and once they have it they'll never notice it. A perfect example is any $10,000 entertainment center or even an iPhone. Why spend $300 on a phone if you're only going to make and receive calls which you can do the same, and just as well, for $30? Out of all of those things that sell almost nobody takes advantage of all the features they have. Hence wasteful.
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Re: Making Gold on the AH

Postby Gracerath » Fri May 28, 2010 2:28 am

daemonym wrote:
Dorvan wrote:
daemonym wrote:And I agree that frost bags aren't worth the effort. To level tailoring from 440-450 that's the only practical recipe for most people so in their (incredibly pointless) desperation to max out a profession (of which has no need to be maxed) they'll spend hundreds of gold making thousands of frost mags and leaves the AH flooded 99% of the time.


Actually there are 16 recipes that require max level tailoring, so I'd debate your contention that there is no need to have tailoring maxed.


There are indeed recipes that need max tailoring yes. But think of this though, of all the tailors in all of wow how many will ever learn those recipes? And out of them all, how many will actually craft them? Or the few that do craft them how much will they get in tips? Probably half of what they could get by selling the recipe if it's boe.I count anything that sits there and does nothing as being worth nothing.

You can say that coalitionists do get something out of it though, entertainment and a sense of enjoyment. But most people just want something just to have it and no other reason and once they have it they'll never notice it. A perfect example is any $10,000 entertainment center or even an iPhone. Why spend $300 on a phone if you're only going to make and receive calls which you can do the same, and just as well, for $30? Out of all of those things that sell almost nobody takes advantage of all the features they have. Hence wasteful.


I maxed my tailoring and bought 4 ICC patterns that I've made a grand total of 0 times and will probably make 0 times before Cataclysm arrives. At the time I thought it was a good idea. Now I'm thinking I'd rather have sold the saronites.
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Re: Making Gold on the AH

Postby Chunes » Fri May 28, 2010 8:54 am

speaking of saronites,

what are the prices looking like on your servers? We were holding strong at about 950-1k'ish but the market has been slipping downward in the last two weeks. Currently we're sitting at about 850 per.

I'm waiting to see how the weekend market affects the prices, then i'm going to get rid of a few that I got cheap. If the prices drop any more I'll be lucky to recoup my initial investment. oh well.
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Re: Making Gold on the AH

Postby theckhd » Fri May 28, 2010 9:41 am

daemonym wrote:Why spend $300 on a phone if you're only going to make and receive calls which you can do the same, and just as well, for $30?

For the mobile AH, of course! ;)

(Aside: I actually use my iPhone less for phone calls than I do for all sorts of other things - the only reason I got the phone was that it didn't make sense to me to buy an iPod Touch and have to carry around that and a phone when I could integrate them into one.)

I think I'm going to have to start reading your blog from the beginning. I've never bothered to play the AH game very much, as I tend to just slowly but surely amass wealth through conventional means. I keep expenditures low, make sure I find the cheapest way to do things, and understand basic economic concepts like opportunity cost, vertical/horizontal combinations, and market manipulation tactics.

But for the past week or so, I decided to try an experiment. Up until now, my auctioning has been limited to ICC bullets and craftable engineering pets (I have quite a corner on the Mechanical Yeti market). But I'm a max-level enchanter with every pattern, so I thought I'd try and make some money selling enchanting scrolls.

So far it's been moderately successful, but I've run into some snags. Here's my observations:

-There seems to be several "goblins" in the enchant market. They seem to have a stockpile of scrolls already, and have apparently had a literal monopoly on the market, because many scrolls are selling at 100g+ mark-ups. Of course, there are others that only barely break even or sell at a loss, but that's a separate issue.

-These goblins are tenacious. They tend to sit around on a lvl 1 relisting very regularly for hours at a time. If they're online and I undercut them, it takes less than ten minutes for them to undercut me right back. This makes it tough to fight with them, because we just slowly decrease the price while trading market time and it forces me to spend a lot of time sitting at the AH relisting.

-Luckily, most of them seem to be Aussie, and are listing things near the end of their evening. If I try and post stuff in the morning, it gets undercut in 10 minutes. If I wait until they log off, or list things right before and after US raid times, I tend to maintain the low buyout spot for hours at a time. So I've had decent luck listing things before and after my raids and just collecting cash in the morning.

-These goblins don't seem to have all of the recipes. The vendor-purchased ones end up in a cycle of undercutting, but I've been able to maintain a near-stranglehold on the Blade Ward and Blood Draining market (inc. theorycraft post "proving" that BW is the best enchant EVAR since it's a 300g profit per scroll!). I've had similar successes with older, harder-to-get enchants (Spellpower and Healing Power from MC, some of the AQ enchants or BC rep enchants).

-I'm not sure what I can do about the goblins. I'm still selling my scrolls at a profit, but the volume is much lower without significant time spent as the market leader. I'm sure they're selling at least as many as I am of the common enchants, which they continue to relist every time they make a sale. Since I have to work to pay IRL repair and consumable costs, I don't have time to sit at the AH all day and keep undercutting them to make the market not worth their time.

My guess is that I just have to get my timing right. Since I can't compete in the Aussie market, undercutting during my mornings doesn't do much good, as it just serves to push prices down without netting me any sales. I think I'll probably be better off leaving my auctions up during those hours, but not trying to edge them out. I may pick up incidental sales (when two purchases happen in rapid succession) or even some sympathy sales (I'm well-known on the server, and I've had at least one or two occasions where an auction of mine has sold while not being the cheapest, leading me to believe that some people prefer not to purchase from a lvl 1 enchanting alt). By leaving prices alone, I'll also make more profit on the enchants I sell during the market window I do dominate (when the gobbos are sleeping).

Buying them out is probably not a feasible plan. I might have the capital to force the enchanting material market prices up, making scrolls less profitable, but Blackrock is high-population so I'm not sure it would last that long. Plus, I suspect the gobbos have a stockpile of scrolls made from cheap materials already, since the tend to list a new scroll immediately without any material auctions ending. Buying out the materials might end up being a very pricey mistake. I could try and buy out their auctions, relisting everything at a large mark-up. But without control over the material market, they can just craft new ones and undercut me. Since all of the auctions I've been looking at are 25g+ profit per scroll, there's lots of room for sniping if one has the time to invest.

I'm thinking about looking for scrolls (or auctions in general) that are below material price and buying out the entire supply, relisting for a 15g profit or so. This might be much more effective, and sounds like what you're doing with glyphs. I have around 100k of capital to throw around, but I'm trying to limit my experimental investment to around 10k of currently-invested funds just to be safe.

Got any advice?
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Re: Making Gold on the AH

Postby Kelaan » Fri May 28, 2010 10:04 am

theckhd wrote:I think I'm going to have to start reading your blog from the beginning.

His blog is the first one I've ever followed every day. As in, I come to work, hit Control-T, type "thea" and my browser autocompletes the rest. :D (I know, I know, RSS ... meh.) It's excellent. I also read Gevlon's (and actually have for a while) but Daemonym does a really good job of things that are more howto-oriented than market analysis or theory.

I'm likely preaching to the choir, but here are some of the things I've liked:

- What glyphs to sell.
- How to get started at {alchemy/jc/scribe}
- How he researches a new market
- How he deals with an uberfarmer, or someone competing. Gevlon just says "outgoblin them", and "make them go away from no profit", but Daemonym went into details on how he (a) gets mats for cheap, or even just buys out the AH, and (b)
- An explanation of how he leverages MANY professions, and all of them are moderately profitable
- Details on how exhaustively he stockpiles raw materials. Some of this seems to be at a rate higher than *I* can afford (e.g. .. 200 stacks of saronite? what??).

Part of his success (IMO) seems to be related to the fact that he plays the AH monopoly game as his primary thing in-game. (In contrast, I am nearly never near one. I'm always raiding on some toon, or leveling my bear, or just not playing.) As a result, I feel like I have a harder time recognizing farmers that I could bulk-buy from, and I also tend not to put the time in to troll trade chat with "buying X materials, Y gold per stack". (Incidentally, Daemonym, when do you find are the good times of the week / day to do that?)

I think someone on my server IS probably doing that, since when I go to look for some raw materials (e.g., herbs, or ores) they're often available only in small quantities, and at prices that would be unprofitable to buy at.
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Re: Making Gold on the AH

Postby Kelaan » Fri May 28, 2010 10:15 am

theckhd wrote:There seems to be several "goblins" in the enchant market.... it takes less than ten minutes for them to undercut me right back.

I'm sure they're selling at least as many as I am of the common enchants, which they continue to relist every time they make a sale. Since I have to work to pay IRL repair and consumable costs, I don't have time to sit at the AH all day and keep undercutting them to make the market not worth their time.

Since all of the auctions I've been looking at are 25g+ profit per scroll, there's lots of room for sniping if one has the time to invest.


From reading the Stokpile blog, I think I remember him saying that at times he's willing to take a hit on profit in order to discourage a competitor. He has the resources to do this for an extended time, and gets cheap mats so that they have a harder time doing it.

You might also do what Gevlon does with glyphs: Don't sell at a large profit. It will drive prices down. The other AHers will either buy you out (profit for you, increased cost for them!), or will undercut you (less profit for them!). If you're posting several low-priced scrolls every day, and they are buying them from you, try ramping up the volume. At some point, they'll have a large stockpile of scrolls which they will have been unable to get rid of (in theory), especially if you've been able to get the enchanting materials cheaply.

At some point, you may bring the profits down far enough that they're spending hours every day for only a few gold profit... and the slimmer the profits get, the more frustrating it will be for them to keep having to undercut you.
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Re: Making Gold on the AH

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri May 28, 2010 10:57 am

Yeah. The other benefit of that strat if they undercut rather than buying you out is that while they're putting their scrolls up at low price, selling, buying more mats, crafting, posting again, all at low profit, you're likely not selling, not having to craft new scrolls, and just reposting the same scrolls with zero deposit costs. The theory is if it goes right and they keep undercutting, you can drive them out at next to no cost to yourself.

Of course it's riskier to do that with scrolls than glyphs, as the material cost is a lot higher.
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Re: Making Gold on the AH

Postby Chunes » Fri May 28, 2010 12:41 pm

Again and again the topic comes up, "how do you dislodge a tenacious goblin from his established market?", and with good reason. Pushing an established goblin from their market is a difficult task because said goblin has likely invested enough time/capital into his corner(s) of the market to be relatively insulated from any sort of short-term pressure applied by an aggressive competitor.

I think to successfully uproot a gobbo you'd simply have to have either more raw capital, a willingness to either make little gold or even negative gold for a good span of time, and a decent amount of time to convince said goblin that a certain market was not worth their time.

Even then, your success would likely be short-lived since once things returned to normal and you started to make money in the newly vacated market, the goblin would likely creep back in eventually. I suppose the trick would be to either find some way to limit his access to the resources utilized in the market you are fighting for, or just keep his incentive to re-enter the market low by posting at low profit margins. Either way, it's a long, hard battle no matter how it's approached.
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Re: Making Gold on the AH

Postby Korola » Fri May 28, 2010 12:53 pm

Chunes wrote:Again and again the topic comes up, "how do you dislodge a tenacious goblin from his established market?", and with good reason. Pushing an established goblin from their market is a difficult task because said goblin has likely invested enough time/capital into his corner(s) of the market to be relatively insulated from any sort of short-term pressure applied by an aggressive competitor.

I think to successfully uproot a gobbo you'd simply have to have either more raw capital, a willingness to either make little gold or even negative gold for a good span of time, and a decent amount of time to convince said goblin that a certain market was not worth their time.

Even then, your success would likely be short-lived since once things returned to normal and you started to make money in the newly vacated market, the goblin would likely creep back in eventually. I suppose the trick would be to either find some way to limit his access to the resources utilized in the market you are fighting for, or just keep his incentive to re-enter the market low by posting at low profit margins. Either way, it's a long, hard battle no matter how it's approached.


This. Also the fact that nothing prevents others from trying to get in on a vulnerable market while your epic struggle is going on. I am more of a vulture with the AH than anything else. Sometimes buying out large portions of items to reset the lowest price, and limiting the amount that I put back up. I am eagerly awaiting the expansion because I love the volatility of the market when people are grinding to level cap.
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Re: Making Gold on the AH

Postby Chunes » Fri May 28, 2010 1:14 pm

Korola wrote:This. Also the fact that nothing prevents others from trying to get in on a vulnerable market while your epic struggle is going on. I am more of a vulture with the AH than anything else. Sometimes buying out large portions of items to reset the lowest price, and limiting the amount that I put back up. I am eagerly awaiting the expansion because I love the volatility of the market when people are grinding to level cap.



Definitely.

I'm furiously leveling up an enchanter now that i've finally capped my alchemist (already have a capped jc). Next step will be to get my alchemist's herbalism up to max and my enchanter's whatever up to max (might go dual crafting on him, ench/inscription mayhaps).

With a Miner/JC + Herb+Alch + Ench/Inscript I'll have plenty to make money with. Gather while leveling if need be, then craft, craft, craft...
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Re: Making Gold on the AH

Postby smiter » Fri May 28, 2010 3:03 pm

I seem to have the eternal belt buckle market cornered a bit (it is me and one other Bsmither who we keep battling it out). About a month ago we were selling buckles as low as 29g on our crappy server. Since then we seem to both be listing a handful a day at 40-50 gold and continually undercutting each other. However, it seems that neither of us are very willingin to sell at under 39g now. I am debating making a boatload and selling for minimal profit (maybe around 25-30 gold each and seeing if I can't push her out of the market). I have been routinely seeking out cheap eternals but lately they have been a bit over-priced. I also only seem to sell about 10max a day regardless of price. But I have been able to make a couple thousand a week just on buckles doing this.
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Re: Making Gold on the AH

Postby daemonym » Fri May 28, 2010 8:23 pm

theckhd wrote:My guess is that I just have to get my timing right.


This is the main part where I can give you advice as yo ahve the rest already down fairly well through good old fhashion logic. I never list in the morning as it jstu brings prices down for no sales. I post once around noon and once after my server generalls ends raids (11pm eastern). I always have a stock of every scroll made so no matter what through sheer probability I'll have several up at lowest or close enough for the popular ones to make a bunch of sales. Things like ice walker, 22 stam to boots, SP to gloves, etc. will always sell in drives and you can also easily force the prices down low to buy the competition's scrolls for your own listing of a high mark up.

That and of course, stokpile as much as you can to deny them the cheap materials so they'll run out eventually. With the currect state of the game enchanting mats are far from infinite in the same way that saronite is infinite, know what I mean?


Kelaan wrote:Part of his success (IMO) seems to be related to the fact that he plays the AH monopoly game as his primary thing in-game. (In contrast, I am nearly never near one. I'm always raiding on some toon, or leveling my bear, or just not playing.) As a result, I feel like I have a harder time recognizing farmers that I could bulk-buy from, and I also tend not to put the time in to troll trade chat with "buying X materials, Y gold per stack". (Incidentally, Daemonym, when do you find are the good times of the week / day to do that?)


Any time I'm at the AH i'll post in trade that I'm buying something and I always get at least one cod order. Buy during prime time and any time during the weekend but never after raids as that's when materials spike up. You sell then because people will think that they're getting a good deal with crystals being 50g each even though you paid half that an hour ago. Are you waiting for rain invites to go out? post in trade. Are you posting auctions? yell in trade. Are you mass crafting a bunch of inks? scan the AH. there's always a moment of opportunity to do some business as it only takes a few moments at a time.

And I do still raid on several toons, just not ICC as my server's pugs are super fail. I clear toc 25 on 3 toons a week and toc 10 twice.
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