trying to help out a fellow tankadin

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trying to help out a fellow tankadin

Postby kaanman36 » Fri May 14, 2010 6:32 am

Okay, so there are two full time paladin tanks in my guild (one being myself).

My character is Gathorc (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... cn=Gathorc)
I am in my Ret gear, but if you look me up on wow-heroes, you can see my prot gear.
His character is Bláckmagicz (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... A1ckmagicz)

We have both received whispers from healers over the past week basically saying that he seems to take MUCH more damage than I do. Our gear level is fairly close (5870 vs 5901). So I pulled up a log from about a month ago (most recent one I could find), and noticed a few things that seem a little weird to me.

Here is the log
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g2x7tk5jeo7a3z35/

When looking at the log, I focused on the Deathbringer Saurfang fight, as I thought that fight would be one of the fights where we would see the most equivalent damage intake.

Here are some highlights from the log.

Bláckmagicz took a total damage of 252,579 damage from normal melee hits
I took a total damage of only 90,800 damage from normal melee hits.

The first big thing that stands out to me is the difference in average damage per melee hit.
Bláckmagicz takes on average 9354.8 per hit, and I took 5044.4 per hit. That is a huge difference and one that I am not entirely sure why is there.

Bláckmagicz took a normal hit from DBS 34.2% of the time
I took a normal hit from DBS only 15.3% of the time.

Bláckmagicz blocked DBS 16 times for an average damage of 9318.9 (basically the same as a normal hit)
I blocked DBS 49 times for an average damage of 7336 (2k less than you per block)

Can anyone help me help Bláckmagicz improve his survivability?
Last edited by kaanman36 on Fri May 14, 2010 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: trying to help out a fellow tankadin

Postby Arcand » Fri May 14, 2010 8:05 am

Some of that difference, though by no means all of it, would have to
do with who has him when he enrages.

No significant problems with the gear. Talents look fine.

That damage disparity is so great that it makes me wonder if your
meters are correct and being interpreted correctly. How long did
each of you have aggro?

Was he taking Blood Boil damage, or did that YOU DIE NAO blood curse
thing end up on him??

(I have a meeting in 4 minutes, so I'm just tossing out ideas without
following them up properly.)
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Re: trying to help out a fellow tankadin

Postby Epimer » Fri May 14, 2010 9:03 am

He's barely casting Holy Shield. The highest uptime in that log is 30%, and sometimes as little as 8% (i.e. he pressed it once).

That's the first thing that leapt out at me from the report, and I doubt it's the sole cause of the discrepancy, but I think he needs to reeducate himself on some basics.
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Re: trying to help out a fellow tankadin

Postby golfinguy » Fri May 14, 2010 9:24 am

Epimer wrote:He's barely casting Holy Shield. The highest uptime in that log is 30%, and sometimes as little as 8% (i.e. he pressed it once).

That's the first thing that leapt out at me from the report, and I doubt it's the sole cause of the discrepancy, but I think he needs to reeducate himself on some basics.


This ^


On the Saurfang fight that you pointed to - his Holy Shield uptime is only 20%. On the same fight, yours was 80%. His rotation needs improvement/re-education.

His set makeup could benefit from more expertise as well (over hit perhaps). And the Glyph of Judgement is a 'meh' glyph for prot, but not the cause of damage intake you're looking at here.
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Re: trying to help out a fellow tankadin

Postby smiter » Fri May 14, 2010 3:31 pm

golfinguy wrote:
Epimer wrote:He's barely casting Holy Shield. The highest uptime in that log is 30%, and sometimes as little as 8% (i.e. he pressed it once).

That's the first thing that leapt out at me from the report, and I doubt it's the sole cause of the discrepancy, but I think he needs to reeducate himself on some basics.


This ^


On the Saurfang fight that you pointed to - his Holy Shield uptime is only 20%. On the same fight, yours was 80%. His rotation needs improvement/re-education.

His set makeup could benefit from more expertise as well (over hit perhaps). And the Glyph of Judgement is a 'meh' glyph for prot, but not the cause of damage intake you're looking at here.



^DOUBLE THIS

holy shield should be used in proper 969 rotation EVERY time it comes into play. Simply no excuse to not use this on Saurfang, or any other boss for that matter. I know there may be situational reasons when you choose to mess up 969 to eek out a bit more DPS when you DO NOT HAVE aggro but if he has aggro he needs to be spamming the crap out of holy shield.
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Re: trying to help out a fellow tankadin

Postby golfinguy » Fri May 14, 2010 10:23 pm

smiter wrote:
golfinguy wrote:
Epimer wrote:He's barely casting Holy Shield. The highest uptime in that log is 30%, and sometimes as little as 8% (i.e. he pressed it once).

That's the first thing that leapt out at me from the report, and I doubt it's the sole cause of the discrepancy, but I think he needs to reeducate himself on some basics.


This ^


On the Saurfang fight that you pointed to - his Holy Shield uptime is only 20%. On the same fight, yours was 80%. His rotation needs improvement/re-education.

His set makeup could benefit from more expertise as well (over hit perhaps). And the Glyph of Judgement is a 'meh' glyph for prot, but not the cause of damage intake you're looking at here.



^DOUBLE THIS

holy shield should be used in proper 969 rotation EVERY time it comes into play. Simply no excuse to not use this on Saurfang, or any other boss for that matter. I know there may be situational reasons when you choose to mess up 969 to eek out a bit more DPS when you DO NOT HAVE aggro but if he has aggro he needs to be spamming the crap out of holy shield.


Ya, just to double check I reviewed my last Saurfang log (didn't want to be the ass that criticized someone else when I was of the same failure). 89% Holy Shield uptime. My misses were probably because I was rotating stuns on one of the adds with our holy pally (heroic mode and all, otherwise we wouldn't bother).
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Re: trying to help out a fellow tankadin

Postby repent » Tue May 25, 2010 1:36 pm

Sorry I didn't read this section earlier. Was he casting exorcism or other cast time spells while actively tanking? Wasn't sure if the earlier responses dealt with the issue, particularly those that seem to suggest a strict 969 rotation on this fight.
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Re: trying to help out a fellow tankadin

Postby lythac » Tue May 25, 2010 6:58 pm

kaanman36 wrote:Here are some highlights from the log.

Bláckmagicz took a total damage of 252,579 damage from normal melee hits
I took a total damage of only 90,800 damage from normal melee hits.

The first big thing that stands out to me is the difference in average damage per melee hit.
Bláckmagicz takes on average 9354.8 per hit, and I took 5044.4 per hit. That is a huge difference and one that I am not entirely sure why is there.


First off his HS did suck, but what you have put above is extremely missleading. I wasn't sure I was even looking at the same fight till I checked HS uptime. You are not adding in the damage from blocked hits and as you are blocking a substantial number of swings more (due to his crap HS) by just listing normal melee attacks and not including blocked melee attacks the values you listed will look odd.

Bláckmagicz took a total damage of 401,681 damage from melee.
You took a total damage of only 450,280 damage from melee.


There, that is better.

2nd part.

Bláckmagicz takes on average 9354.8 per hit
You took 5044.4 per hit, your average blocked attack was 7336.3

Your blocked attacks were 2.3k higher than unblocked attacks according to the stat page. Odd.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g2x7 ... 285&e=2476 [{"eventTypes": [1], "targetNames": ["Gathorc"], "sourceNames": ["Deathbringer Saurfang"]}]
(Show events where event type is Hit and source is Deathbringer Saurfang and target is Gathorc)

There are supposed to be 18 normal melee hits in this fight, count the number of melee hits that don't have a (b) next to them. I counted 8, but am tired so there may have been one more. Attacks that have both an absorb and a block are counted as normal melee attacks. So on your average hits you are seeing additional damage removed from blocks and those tasty 9k absorbs. Those few hits with a 9k absorb drag the average right down. We are not seeing this happen on the other paladin due to low HS time.

The average damage per melee hit/blocked attack.

You 6720 (450280/67)
Him 9341 (401681/43)

Well, that's a lot better. What is causing most of the difference is -

You blocked more.
You have 400 armor more.
You had 100% uptime on Divine Plea, he had 0% uptime.
You started tanking when the boss isn't enraged, I reckon he took some of the harder hits.





So he needs to do the correct rotation and use DP.

Teh log is fine.
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Re: trying to help out a fellow tankadin

Postby Mert » Wed May 26, 2010 8:23 am

The problem with the Saurfang fight is that on top of his damage output scaling with his Blood Power, it's a fight where a sub-optimal rotation is often used to avoid pulling aggro on the Blood Beasts - I've certainly been known to use Exorcism on that fight, for example, simply because the Blood Beasts were imminent which makes Consecration, HotR and (unglyphed) AS riskier options to use in that situation.

That said, Divine Plea absolutely has no reason to ever be not up on that fight so he'll definitely want to look into that as a priority. As for his rotation, definitely double check that he knows how to solidly 969 but I'd recommend against chastising him too heavily based on the Saurfang log alone - his numbers for Festergut, for example, are much closer to what you'd expect (he has around half as many HS casts as Judgements but presumably he missed out HS when not tanking so it's about right).

On the Festergut fight it looks as though he went first? He took an average melee swing of 20.3k compared to your 20k flat. Again, he is not using Divine Plea in this fight at all.

I suspect that him being "way harder to heal" is a combination of taking more enraged/high BP moments on Saurfang and your healers needing to react quicker. Divine Plea, while definitely something he needs to address, doesn't make for a huge discrepancy. Honestly I think he's fine otherwise.
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Re: trying to help out a fellow tankadin

Postby theckhd » Wed May 26, 2010 10:10 am

The lack of Divine Plea is especially weird, since on both of those fights you'll need to cast it exactly once, about 10 seconds before the boss engages.
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Re: trying to help out a fellow tankadin

Postby golfinguy » Wed May 26, 2010 11:05 am

Mert wrote:The problem with the Saurfang fight is that on top of his damage output scaling with his Blood Power, it's a fight where a sub-optimal rotation is often used to avoid pulling aggro on the Blood Beasts - I've certainly been known to use Exorcism on that fight, for example, simply because the Blood Beasts were imminent which makes Consecration, HotR and (unglyphed) AS riskier options to use in that situation.


I would not let him off the hook on HS at all - as it is absolutely unaffected by Saurfang's rotation interruptions. As we've already stated he only had 20% uptime compared to his counterpart having 80%. When I looked at my previous Saurfang fight I had 89% uptime. HS is one of the abilities you can cast at anytime during that fight - 969 interruptions aside, there is no reason not to cast it. I would bet my HS uptime on Saurfang is higher than normal because of this, not lower.

And I totally missed the lack of DP :oops: . I spend my days (day job) looking for the intricate and complex and sometimes miss the obvious and basic :lol:
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Re: trying to help out a fellow tankadin

Postby theckhd » Wed May 26, 2010 11:11 am

golfinguy wrote:I would not let him off the hook on HS at all - as it is absolutely unaffected by Saurfang's rotation interruptions. As we've already stated he only had 20% uptime compared to his counterpart having 80%. When I looked at my previous Saurfang fight I had 89% uptime. HS is one of the abilities you can cast at anytime during that fight - 969 interruptions aside, there is no reason not to cast it. I would bet my HS uptime on Saurfang is higher than normal because of this, not lower.

You don't need to keep Holy Shield up while you're not the active tank. You can eke out a bit more DPS by substituting Avenger's Shield (or Hammer of Wrath sub-25%) for the first post-taunt Holy Shield. I'm generally too distracted by taunting adds and helping out with random utility skills to do this myself, but I'm sure Mel and others who can count on their ranged DPS do it.

That said, you should still see above 50% uptime with that method, not 20%.
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Re: trying to help out a fellow tankadin

Postby golfinguy » Wed May 26, 2010 11:59 am

theckhd wrote:
golfinguy wrote:I would not let him off the hook on HS at all - as it is absolutely unaffected by Saurfang's rotation interruptions. As we've already stated he only had 20% uptime compared to his counterpart having 80%. When I looked at my previous Saurfang fight I had 89% uptime. HS is one of the abilities you can cast at anytime during that fight - 969 interruptions aside, there is no reason not to cast it. I would bet my HS uptime on Saurfang is higher than normal because of this, not lower.

You don't need to keep Holy Shield up while you're not the active tank. You can eke out a bit more DPS by substituting Avenger's Shield (or Hammer of Wrath sub-25%) for the first post-taunt Holy Shield. I'm generally too distracted by taunting adds and helping out with random utility skills to do this myself, but I'm sure Mel and others who can count on their ranged DPS do it.

That said, you should still see above 50% uptime with that method, not 20%.


While the point is true, I still believe HS uptime on Saurfang should not suffer. There are several GCDs when you cannot/should not cast Cons, HotR, and even AS. Even if not 'neccesary' there are plenty of GCDs available to cast HS anyway - as there is nothing else viable/useful to press.

If he's in my guild I'm hammering the rotation into him and not telling him about such things for a few more weeks anyway :wink:
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Re: trying to help out a fellow tankadin

Postby cds4850 » Wed May 26, 2010 12:43 pm

Blood beasts have the same mechanic as faction champs in reduced damage from AoE effects. Consecrate is AoE-riffic, so feel free to cast it freely on this encounter whilst using holy shield liberally.


For encounters lasting longer than four hours, consult your physician.
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