Blood Furnace..not even heroic and I already feel the pain

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Blood Furnace..not even heroic and I already feel the pain

Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:36 pm

More specifically, Fel Anihilators. Avoiding doing a messy pull is easy and all...but what about holding damn threat on those guys? They dropped aggro at least thrice before dieing EACH /cry


And..any tips on caster pulls? Usually I try to LoS them but sometimes I couldn't do that.

The healer also bitchedabout me taking too much damage(he's bitchy anyway but he might have a point). I only really came close to die once, and died a couple times over the ful run. 55% reduction from armor, 74 block value, 8% dodge, 8% parry and 8% block each, 7300 buffed hp.
Image
I am not allowed to seduce the abyssal's lunar mate.
User avatar
Snake-Aes
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 15542
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:15 am
Location: Thorns

Re: Blood Furnace..not even heroic and I already feel the pa

Postby Sparti » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:27 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:More specifically, Fel Anihilators. Avoiding doing a messy pull is easy and all...but what about holding damn threat on those guys? They dropped aggro at least thrice before dieing EACH /cry


And..any tips on caster pulls? Usually I try to LoS them but sometimes I couldn't do that.

The healer also bitchedabout me taking too much damage(he's bitchy anyway but he might have a point). I only really came close to die once, and died a couple times over the ful run. 55% reduction from armor, 74 block value, 8% dodge, 8% parry and 8% block each, 7300 buffed hp.


The fel annihilators drop aggro randomly on normal. There's nothing you can really do about it. Save your taunt for the people who can't live through a few hits and use Avenger's to pull back on the people who can. As for the healer bitching about you taking too much damage, what did he expect? No tank in the early 60s is exactly beefy, and if the healer is having trouble healing through it, chances are the healer's gear is pretty poor. I did most of those early instances with a nonspec healer wearing a smattering of greens and she was able to keep me up fine, and my gear in the early 60s was completely awful - and tbh, your stats are amazing for someone of your level. Sounds like a bad healer to me, and if anyone complained about the aggro dump, players not familiar with game mechanics.
Image

Drink Time, Wimps! -- A blog.
User avatar
Sparti
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2007 12:11 am
Location: Probably contributing to Sprint's wonderful track record of horrible customer service.

Postby Uthadanin » Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:18 am

TBH, get a different healer. I have healed 2 runs of blood furnace so far. And yes we have wiped a couple of times, but I am not spec'd holy. We were able to complete it once with me healing with ~5k mana, (don't know my healing stats off of the top of my head), (another time gave up in the room with the cell's).

In my tank set buffed, I can almost match your stats and I think you are a little squishy for blood furnace due to the casters, but it is very do-able. Another idea is to have a druid for dps to get the extra heals in a pinch. I am guessing that your 7k health comes from prayer of fort, and kings, possibly blood pact.

Another suggestion is have your healers and casters as far back as possible, tank facing them and have your melee dps in between the mob and casters. Than have your dps kill the runners or caster sheep etc.
Image
Image
User avatar
Uthadanin
 
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:01 am
Location: Colonie, NY

Re: Blood Furnace..not even heroic and I already feel the pa

Postby Exodius » Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:31 am

Snake-Aes wrote:More specifically, Fel Anihilators. Avoiding doing a messy pull is easy and all...but what about holding damn threat on those guys? They dropped aggro at least thrice before dieing EACH /cry


And..any tips on caster pulls? Usually I try to LoS them but sometimes I couldn't do that.

The healer also bitchedabout me taking too much damage(he's bitchy anyway but he might have a point). I only really came close to die once, and died a couple times over the ful run. 55% reduction from armor, 74 block value, 8% dodge, 8% parry and 8% block each, 7300 buffed hp.


I haven't run blood furnace, heroic or normal, in a very long time. :(

That being said though, I suspect the mob you might be having trouble on is a demon. Exorcism would likely work well then as a cheap threat jumper when they swap targets. It's faster and costs less mana than AS. Taunts another valid strategy, as is a judged seal of righteousness. Blessings of Protection also works, but that's more a last resort.

Just remember to watch your cooldowns though. If it's a known threat swapper, hold off judging or exorcising or whatever until they swap. If you have no cooldowns up then likely someone will die. :(

---

As for casters, LoS whenever possible and try and CC early straight after a pull (when you are running like a chicken to block LoS or pull back). Focus fire on casters first. Most melee are a joke to paladin tanks, but casters can and do hurt, so kill them first. :)

If you can't do even that (there are too many, no walls near by), then try and focus on healers then other casters, and try and do a tap back trick. Slowly walk backwards towards another mob if they are not casting and they will walk back with you. If they are casting, then go back to them. If a rogue can kick, a shaman earth shock or a mage counterspell them, that will help as well in terms of gathering them up.

It's not a bad thing to have a caster hit your back with a spell. It makes no difference on a hit table as far as I know. Just keep melee and your primary target in the front arc.

But the most important thing to remember with casters, is to watch your own healer if you are not aggroing them (say from a consercrate). They will swap targets, and you need to mentally prepare for that with taunts and blessings of protection if necessary.

---

I'm not really sure what are good stats for level 61, but yes, it could just be your healer being a grumpy bear. If it's a friend, you need to sit down and talk to the person about what you both expect. If it's a stranger, well, you don't have to get a grumpy healer in a PuG after the first time you have run with them. :?
Image
Image
Exodius
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:09 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:37 am

I used all my tricks there, I hope. AS When they dropped / taunt when not in CD / consecrated 24/7 and exorcising when it wasn't on cooldown. As I said, the healer is bitchy but he's good at it =P We were in a pug(cept for him and me being old in the game) where 2 of the 3 dpsers were either too newb or had really no clue of what was going on. At least the newb learned to pay attention(I ordered no one to engage till he died after he charged without me pulling, he took it the good way and allowed me to use LoS pulls and whatever else)

Good to know the aggro drop really is their crap =|
Those legionnaires knock me back, and I lost aggro a couple times on that. Is that avoidable?

On casters: i try to save my arcane torrent to interrupt healers/pull casters. THe slow Motion Exodius mentioned worked for me a bit(most groups moved about 20 yards during the whole fight that way) and it's easy to LoS most groups because of mana tap range( = AS) And single-target, low aggro radius capability.

Well, I guess that's it ^^ Thanks guys. The run was pretty fun and for a PuG, it was pretty amazing(1 wipe, run it all in 1 hour and a half). Without the warlock of the group(best pug warlock i've seen so far)that place would be so much more difficult...And I could sustain 500~tps on the rogues O.O <3 holy shield
Image
I am not allowed to seduce the abyssal's lunar mate.
User avatar
Snake-Aes
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 15542
Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:15 am
Location: Thorns

Postby Metrodin » Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:51 pm

Not much can be done about those Annilhilators.

According to wowhead their charge range is 15-20yds and if you can get the casters/healers to stay back they wont be bothered.
I've yet to see it though. Even in a good PuG it can be tricky to make sure everyone knows to stay back. If just one person is too close they can charge from one person to the next and all of a sudden you have 1-2 Annihilators running amok in the rear of your group.

Best bet is taunting and stunning as much as you can after they deaggro and hope your dps is good enough to kill them quickly.
Metrodin
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:30 pm
Location: Australia

Postby Corynthia » Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:15 am

Just let everyone know before the fight that you can't keep aggro very well on those mobs. On a normal setting, they don't really one or two-shot anyone, and always felt messy, but that was it.

A few tips:

Save Taunt and Excorcism for *after* you lose the mob.

Keep everyone close so you can pick them back up with Consecrate.

Use your bubble on the healer.

Use raid marks so everyone knows what they should be DPSing.

If you have a Warlock, let them enslave one of the Felguards.
Image
Image
Corynthia
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:34 pm

Postby kalbear » Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:11 pm

More specifically, Fel Anihilators. Avoiding doing a messy pull is easy and all...but what about holding damn threat on those guys? They dropped aggro at least thrice before dieing EACH /cry
No warrior, druid or paladin on earth can keep aggro on them. That's not your fault. For those guys, do the following:

when you pull, make sure they're not enraged.
Take care of the non-fel annihilator (the spellcaster) first if you pull him (you have to on 2 of the three pulls)

If you have a lock, banish one.
If you have a hunter, trap one.
If you don't have either, try and stun the other one with HoJ + other talents.

Finally, use your taunt every chance you get, and use your BoP on the healer. Your taunt should never be off cooldown in this fight.

It's messy and ugly, but there's only so much you can do to deal with it. Everything else should be dealt with by the group. The only other advice is that you should prioritize the healer at all times. As long as the group is being healed you should be okay.
kalbear
 
Posts: 1337
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:11 pm

Postby Exodius » Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:46 pm

I believe what is being described does not occur on heroic mode...

But then again, for the final demons, they can't be enslaved (but they can still be banished).

They also white hit me for 3k and special attack for 5k. :shock:

So I'm glad they took out whatever ability you are describing. :?
Image
Image
Exodius
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:09 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Postby Invisusira » Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:47 pm

I hate those.

MOB THAT DROPS AGGRO FASTER THAN YOU CAN TAUNT?

User avatar
Invisusira
Moderator
 
Posts: 9021
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:23 pm
Location: alt-tabbed

Re: Blood Furnace..not even heroic and I already feel the pa

Postby Corynthia » Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:56 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:The healer also bitchedabout me taking too much damage(he's bitchy anyway but he might have a point). I only really came close to die once, and died a couple times over the ful run. 55% reduction from armor, 74 block value, 8% dodge, 8% parry and 8% block each, 7300 buffed hp.


You know, when I first got to Outlands, I went for some of the gear with Str, Sta, and Defense Rating, and what I realized was, it didn't work very well (for me anyway). Before you get to some of the later content (think 70s instances), I would pretty much focus just on stamina. A higher hp pool (and buff yourself with Kings for boss fights) makes the run much smoother.

Bad or inexperienced healers don't react quick enough to incoming damage (ie they wait until you're at 50% health before they cast their slow heals) and they need more time to get their heals off.

A good healer will bring you back up to full HP the moment they can do so without overhealing. At that point, damage reduction is amazing for efficiency.

I think the healer you described meant to say that you were going down too fast, and a bigger hit point pool would help there. Before level 70, the avoidance you can pile up (at the expense of much needed stamina) doesn't seem worth it in my opinion.

As an adendum, even at 70 you'll trade out a lot of your avoidance gear for spell damage unless you're doing Heroics and Raid instances, so get your hp up to the 10k+ mark sooner rather than later.
Image
Image
Corynthia
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:34 pm

Re: Blood Furnace..not even heroic and I already feel the pa

Postby Exodius » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:09 am

I disagree with Corynthia. Although avoidance tanking comes more into play at level 70 when you start to get proper avoidance gear, it's still a valid tactic to use at lower levels and for lower health pools.

Sure, it means the healer might need to be on the ball more and need to perhaps preheal rather than wait for you to take a non-avoided big hit...

But it's still a valid way to stretch out a small health pool. I was clearing heroics with 10k health because my avoidance is high. It's only just starting to get into what some people feel comfortable with - 13k health unbuffed it is nowadays....

But I've cleared heroic SV and SL at 11k. It's not just the health pool that makes a good tank.

If you want to say that a good health pool compensates for bad healers, then you could say the same for intellect and mp5. Sure, they won't immediately kill your party if you run out of mana, but if an emergency happens and the healer is slacking off anyway, more mana will let you keep covering their incompetence, just like a large health pool. :P

Disagree with me if you want, but I think that's why the old crap tanking gear has mp5 and high intellect. To cover for crap healers. :P
Image
Image
Exodius
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:09 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Blood Furnace..not even heroic and I already feel the pa

Postby Corynthia » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:19 pm

Exodius wrote:I disagree with Corynthia. Although avoidance tanking comes more into play at level 70 when you start to get proper avoidance gear, it's still a valid tactic to use at lower levels and for lower health pools.

[Edited for brevity]

But I've cleared heroic SV and SL at 11k. It's not just the health pool that makes a good tank.


I think I said when you first get into Outlands, you should focus on stamina over avoidance. Until you start to run the 67+ instances, there just isn't much decent avoidance gear unless you go with some of the tanking greens that have +str, +sta, and +defense rating.

In my experience, going crazy on avoidance gear might nab you somewhere around 5-10% extra avoidance (on melee damage only) before level 67 (maybe more if you nab a Shield of the Wayward Footman) at the expense of 2-3k health. In contrast, a tank at that level probably has 6-8k in health; at 6k health, +2000 hp is 33% jump in hp and at 8k, it's a 25% jump in hp (that buffers against all types of incoming damage). Before you start to get into some of the nicer, socketed tanking gear that drops in later instances, it just doesn't seem worth it. Hitting 9-10k unbuffed health really makes Outlands instances much better.

Once you start to tank 69-70 content, you have access to much better gear and avoidance is a lot easier to stack in meaningful quantities. And what I said at that point is that if you have a decent group and good healing, you're better off stacking spell dmg and purposely taking more damage (to gain back extra mana and produce more threat).

I think avoidance really becomes a factor when you hit heroics and Kara and you start to gear for uncrittable/uncrushable status. Just my opinion, of course, but I feel the need to clarify. The OP mentioned that this was a Blood Furnace run and they were probably level 61-64ish.
Image
Image
Corynthia
 
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:34 pm

Re: Blood Furnace..not even heroic and I already feel the pa

Postby Exodius » Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:25 am

Corynthia wrote:In my experience, going crazy on avoidance gear might nab you somewhere around 5-10% extra avoidance (on melee damage only) before level 67 (maybe more if you nab a Shield of the Wayward Footman) at the expense of 2-3k health. In contrast, a tank at that level probably has 6-8k in health; at 6k health, +2000 hp is 33% jump in hp and at 8k, it's a 25% jump in hp (that buffers against all types of incoming damage). Before you start to get into some of the nicer, socketed tanking gear that drops in later instances, it just doesn't seem worth it. Hitting 9-10k unbuffed health really makes Outlands instances much better.


Let me clarify as well then. I never expressly stated to go crazy over avoidance either.

But before 2.3 and the new stamina buffs, the majority of paladin tank theory was to only socket SSoE gems and only take stamina/health enchants. The rationale behind this was because we had a lower hit pool compared to warriors and of course druids, we needed more stamina to be able to clear similar content.

I disagreed with this view before 2.3 and I still disagree with it now, as paladins in general are starting to see the light and put some avoidance gems in to try and get set bonuses as the pressure to have high health has been reduced a lot.

It's all part of the greater discussion of avoidance verses stamina stack tanking. Ideally one should be going for high effective health however, rather than pure health numbers, and that means including some avoidance into the equasion.

The only really time you need massive amounts of health is when a mob will regularily swing for massive amounts. Something that white swings for 8k will squash something with a 10k buffed health pool, no matter how hard they are to hit.

It's only when you start getting to such obscene mob levels in very high end game content that you really need to stack health then, and at that point, you should be solid on the avoidance side of things anyway. :P
Image
Image
Exodius
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:09 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Postby Marimmar » Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:39 am

Corynthia wrote:Just let everyone know before the fight that you can't keep aggro very well on those mobs. On a normal setting, they don't really one or two-shot anyone, and always felt messy, but that was it.

[...]

If you have a Warlock, let them enslave one of the Felguards.


You have to be very careful when enslaving the guards, they happen to random charge into other felguards that have not entered combat yet, banish is the more reasonable way to go.
Marimmar
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:51 am

Next

Return to 5 Mans / Heroics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

Who is online

In total there are 0 users online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 0 guests (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests