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Teron Gorefiend

Naj'entus, Supremus, Akama, Gorefiend, Gurtogg Bloodboil, RoS, Sharaz, Council, Illidan

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, fiend

Postby Worldie » Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:51 am

Today we were discussing about if using our warrior MT would have been more advisable due to higher mitigation (damn mt prio on gear ><).

This was the comment from one of our healers
Some viable healing info incoming:

Healers were me Cruisea Eshu and Dreth.

From my point of view around half of the attempts you are healed up easy due to the fact that when you get hit add 0.2 sec delay to press my heal button and no one healing you (one of the wipes i tryed to solo heal you to see how much I can last) and considering you taking another blow I was still managing to keep you up through big heal spam.As long as you or any tank for taht matter mitigate 2 hits and dmg eat 1 he can be healed up by no more then 3 healers.

In Worldi situation its a bit risky for 3 healers couse if he takes 3 dmg hits in a row he has vey high chance of dieing.You may ask why?Well paladins are the cleansers as well so even if we have 1 paladin dedicated for cleansing purpose only so that we can be sure that the other 2 are only healing and are not stoping their casts for cleanse which leads to another 1.5 sec world cooldown it there were still moments that I wished i can glue my big heal button couse those extra 1.5k dmg lead to 3 hit death in worse case scenario.Therefor 4th healer was assigned.

Assuming nessu tanking or any other tank that can take 3 hits and not die couse he will take less overall dmg more like of a 6-7k row tops?(even with 7k there will be hots on him so I dont think that the real dmg done will be more then 5-6k max)
we can spare the 4th healer and make him ffa ..something we realy need couse even on the try taht no skellys managed to go to the raid we still wiped dew to the insufficient ffa healing that led to another 4 people to die.Im not saying ffa healers did less or bad or anything.Im stating that 4 ffa healers can not hold the fight and at the same time the tank healers must top off worldi couse of the incoming 9k hit.Dont forget that the blossoms also hit worldi and at the 3d wipe or 4th wipe he had to use lay on hands as well couse he recieved 2-3(atliest) shadow bolt hits and a boss dmg hit allmost at the same time.

Now if tank with more hp tanks he can be still crush immune and can free a MT healer.I see good in this first becouse the freed healer will be pally that can cleanse the raid without worry about world cooldown after it and will free the MT healers hands to keep their healing rotation up.Also that free healer can become a MT healer if one of the MT healers get the debuff early in the fight.Warrior tank can bring much to the table on end fight since a shield wall can comensate for dead healers that are allready dead and bring much more survivability and kill.Same goes for last stand.

Healer`s conclusion a warr tank is better here due to a fact that he can pop up SW and LS when he see taht we have good kill attempt and secure the kill as well as freeing up a healer taht can go ffa and keep the not debuffed people up.



So basically we have our DPS crying for me tanking, and healers preferring the warrior.

The comparison is about 6% less damage, 1-2k HP and 4-5% pure avoidance vs a bit more threat + high frontload threat. And ofc, panic buttons.


Should i tell him he is wrong, or that more threat (and so, more DPS) in this fight, or he's correct and i should step back and leave Gorefiend to our MT?

This is me
http://armory.wow-europe.com/character- ... t&n=Worldi
and this is our MT
http://armory.wow-europe.com/character- ... st&n=Nessu
if gear matters.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Rhî » Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:11 am

Two ways:

- Discuss with your mates and maybe you will get some declination and antipathy
- Stay in second Place and nobody will dislike you.

My experience is, that there is always at least one person, who is not ready to give you a fair chance. And for uncertain things you need a complete acceptance.

I stay calm and wait for my chance. I don't like disccusions with my mates. Things are always getting quick-tempered.
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Postby Afraithe » Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:13 am

In 9 out 10 trys, what will kill you is someone fucking up the Construct killing, so who tanks is a minor concern imo.

BTW, raid should wear a little bit of shadow res (at the very least, the neck), helps raid healing a lot.

I'm not gona say Paladin tank is better here, no real difference imo, but high threat goes a long way to shorten the fight a bit and have less chance of Construct screwups, that is, if your DPS is threat capped.

Edit: Comparing the gear, your Warrior has good gear, if he is in the raid, he should be tanking and you should put on your healing gear and either flash heal or be on cleanse duty (maybe spec improved jotc and keep it up), sorry, but thats the most effective way if you raid is setup like that. You do more good switching gear than the prot Warrior will do. I'm guessing this is progress fight, perhaps later when you have this on farm you can have a little fun tanking him.
Last edited by Afraithe on Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Worldie » Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:17 am

Ye but u know, we can't just roll to decide who's tanking :D


There's no antipathy atm in my guild, we are a very well coordinated tank squad and everyone in my guild loves me including healers. Our DPS simply love when i tank, and healers like the pew pew yellow lights.
We're just trying to find out which is the most suitable tank (and tbh our MT loves slacking :D) for this fight.

Constructs seembed to go correctly, almost everyone menaged to do them well at the end of the raid.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Splug » Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:55 am

As the fight drags on, you're eventually going to run out of soulstones and combat raises. That means there are fewer healers, fewer damage dealers, and more doom blossoms. I'm not sure what your standard raid configuration is, but in my guild if we have more than 7 healers in the raid, someone gets swapped out for damage on Gorefiend/RoS. The fight needs to be over in 5 minutes, 4 preferebly. So I guess that means if you have 6 healers in the raid, it's viable to have you swap to healing gear. If you have 7 not counting yourself, then extra damage dealer, as sub-par as protection warriors may be for the job, is probably mandatory. If the gear were even, the decision would be clear. It sounds like you're a bit behind the warrior in gear though, and I fear that may be the dealbreaker - largely due to a lack of faith, unfortunately.

Gorefiend is 80% construct control, 10% raid survival, 10% tank survival. I guess the question is - why were you wiping last night? Was it tank deaths, raid deaths, or constructs? If it was constructs, ramping up damage via a paladin tank's threat may save you a ghost phase. If it was raid deaths, you'll have less doom blossoms with a higher threat tank and shorter fight. The only reason from a 100% objective standpoint to use a lower threat/higher armor tank is if your death was the cause of the wipes.

(And on a sidenote - I'm envious of your guild bank. I have to buy my own ironshields!)

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Postby Worldie » Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:35 am

All our wipes were caused by constructs actually.


We'll try with our warrior MT next time and see how the DPS goes, if they are threat capped i'll get the job.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby fiorina » Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:11 pm

Typical WWS with paladin as MT, just for the reference:
http://wowwebstats.com/6sdrkrrielcna?s=32-292&m

you can compare with warrior (a little bit better geared but no ironshields):
http://wowwebstats.com/lqvaytxjy5iqi?m&s=11-282
Last edited by fiorina on Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Worldie » Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:16 pm

Interesting, the War took more damage than the pally.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby fiorina » Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:17 pm

Worldie wrote:Interesting, the War took more damage than the pally.


I've edited. I think ironshields made a difference (he is a cheap bastard) :)
Overall damage is higher because some DPS died and my TPS was a bit better allowing raid going full out.
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Postby Rainge » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:33 pm

Downed this guy tonight. Even though I was healing/cleansing for this fight, it's probably my favorite so far in BT - the ghost controlling is fun =D

Just as an FYI, since I haven't seen it in this thread, Gorefiend can crush for upwards of 14k on a tank - so keeping HS up and having tons of health just in case he smacks you at that 10.1 second mark would seem to be imperative.
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Postby Worldie » Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:57 am

I won't consider a war or pala taking more than a occasional lag crush on a boss that has a 2.0 attack speed worth even tanking Van Cleef :P
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Rainge » Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:17 am

Worldie wrote:I won't consider a war or pala taking more than a occasional lag crush on a boss that has a 2.0 attack speed worth even tanking Van Cleef :P


Well, ours learned this the hard way I think - he was probably prioritizing threat abilities over shield block and got gibbed. I was secretly laughing my butt off though.
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Postby Daeren » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:52 pm

It seemed like he had 1,6 speed on the warrior.

4 minutes and 22 secs = 262 secs of fighting

Hits+crush = 65
All aovided = 95

Time of fight / number of hits = second between each hit

262 / 160 = 1,6375 = 1,6 for all purposes.
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Postby Splug » Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:07 pm

Worldie wrote:I won't consider a war or pala taking more than a occasional lag crush on a boss that has a 2.0 attack speed worth even tanking Van Cleef :P


Roll the dice enough times and eventually they'll come up poorly, skill has nothing to do with that.

Time = 0.0 sec: Cast shield block (2 charges)
0.5 sec: Gorefiend attacks, blocked (1 charge remaining)
2.5 sec: Gorefiend attacks, blocked (0 charges remaining)
4.5 sec: Gorefiend attacks, tank is vulnerable to crushing blow.
5.0 sec: Shield block cooldown ends.

If it's 1.6 seconds as Daeren is saying, the window for the above timing allignment is larger. Regardless, a 2.0 speed attacker can punch through shield block, even if your tank isn't autoattacking to trigger a parry. Punching through holy shield is much more difficult, but there's always the latency gap as the cooldown finishes.

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Postby Gerilith » Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:30 am

More DPS = less constructs + less shadowbolts = less healing nessessary

As the paladin does not need more healers to keep him up and the raid needs less healing with a paladin I see no reason against the paladin. With enough HP (no leapfrogging) the paladin will buffer the spike dmg due to AD even better than the warrior imho.
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