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BM hunters

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BM hunters

Postby superworm » Sat May 08, 2010 10:59 am

I know that BM hunters are currently not such a good dps spec. However, this spec could provide the sunder armor debuff which helps all the melee dps. Now that my 10 man group are preparing for HM LK, I would like to maximize our dps. We have 3 melee dps: a combat rogue, an unholy dk and a hunter (currently MM) as well as 2 tanks: a blood dk and a tankadin, who could benefit from the sunder armor debuff. I believe the combat rogue and hunter could benefit most. MM spec provides 10% AP which is already covered by the dk tank, so that's not an issue.

However, I'm considering whether the dps gain caused by the -20% sunder exceed the dps loss of the hunter by speccing to BM. The 3 dpsers I mentioned could all output around 10k dps in HM DBS, and I believe the rouge and hunter are close to, if not already at, 100% arp. I know I could actually try this out in the raid, but I would like to get some basic idea first. Any input would be welcome!
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Re: BM hunters

Postby Amirya » Sat May 08, 2010 3:05 pm

My rogue is a banker, so I haven't looked in a bit, but doesn't Expose Armor create the same sunder effect? I seem to recall a lot of warriors bitching about it.

Edit: Just logged into the rogue - Expose Armor is a finishing move that reduces armor by 20%, and with a full 5 combo points, is up for 30 seconds.
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Re: BM hunters

Postby Rhiannon » Sat May 08, 2010 3:48 pm

We discussed in guild this after seeing For the Horde used a BM hunter to provide their major armor debuff on their first LK 25 heroic kil despite the presence of several warriors/rogues who could have done it instead. When they run the numbers it must have worked out for them, the 10 second ramp up time seemed to be quite a negative to me though (the worm's acid spit has a 10 second cd and is 10% per application). For our own 10 man lk heroic attempts we've been running MM hunter, rogue providing expose. If you're going this way I strongly recommending he glyphs expose armor - it transforms the rotation from being a pain in the ass to being really very straight forward. With glyph, 1 cp exposes are enough for most of the adds, meaning you can have the armor debuff active within a couple of gcds, rather than having to wait at least 10 seconds. The hit to the rogue's personal dps is of the order of 1k or so, considerably less than the MM hunter would lose speccing to BM imo.
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Re: BM hunters

Postby fafhrd » Sat May 08, 2010 6:23 pm

I always assumed that the BM hunter was used on the LK25 kill because his pet could put up sunder on a valkyr while rogues/warriors were busy exposing/sundering the other 2 valks, not necessarily to put it up instead of them - although once you have the BM hunter, you might as well use the pet's sunder on single-target phases as well. In 10 man you don't have this issue since you only have one Valkyr at a time.

How much DPS the hunter loses is hard to say, since it depends on what raid buffs/debuffs you have and what gear he has - in near BiS gear BM is comparable to SV on a tank and spank fights with full buffs, but 10 man LK is neither tank and spank nor full buffs. MM hunter loses significant DPS from not having mangle/trauma on his target, which may be the case in your 10 man, but that loss wouldn't affect a BM hunter. BM hunter also has a good DPS cooldown on a short cooldown, which an MM hunter doesn't, which is good for valks. However, his pure ranged DPS is lower than MM by quite a lot and pets don't DPS on the move very well (nor do BM hunters for that matter) - also a worm is one of the worst DPS pets a BM hunter can use, so that "comparable to SV DPS" doesn't apply.

Note that if you don't have an arcane mage or ret pally, the BM hunter also brings 3% damage to the raid, which probably tips the scales in favour of making him go BM and sunder.

I'd say try with a rogue doing it for now, and if you run into issues, try with a hunter. Or link the hunter's armory and your raid comp, and I can give you the theoretical DPS delta for the hunter, and someone else can do the same for the rogue.
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Re: BM hunters

Postby Rhiannon » Sat May 08, 2010 6:37 pm

Correction to my above post, it's actually 7 seconds rather than 10 due to talents.

I remember checking through FTH's first kill parse and looking for sunders or exposes, as far as I could tell acid spit was the only armor debuff they used. Not sure it's 100% optimal, but worked for them!

PS: strange coincedence that your forum name is what it is, given the subject of this thread Superworm ¬_¬
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Re: BM hunters

Postby superworm » Sat May 08, 2010 9:16 pm

The said hunter's armory:
http://tw.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... D%E5%A3%87

It's on the Taiwan server, so I don't know whether you could display it right. Anyway, my group does lack the mangle/trauma debuff and 3% damage buff. It now consists of :
blood dk (+10% AP),
tankadin (+3% crit),
disc priest,
healadin,
balance druid (+3% haste, +5% spell crit, 3% spell hit, +13% spell damage),
elemental shaman (+5% spell crit, +3% crit & 280 sp via wrath totem, 5% spell haste or 16% melee haste via air totem),
spriest (refreshment, 3% spell hit),
combat rogue (+4% physical damage),
unholy dk (+13% spell damage, +30% disease damage)
MM hunter (+10% AP).

The same kind of buffs/debuffs don't stack. The synergy of casters are somewhat good as we only lack the improved scorch kind debuff and 3% damage buff. Physical dpsers are at a less optimal situation, but I think at least sunder could provide them more dps.

And of course the rogue could also use expose armor, but I'm not sure whether he could remember to keep it up. Maybe I should talk about it with him.
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Re: BM hunters

Postby fafhrd » Sun May 09, 2010 10:42 am

superworm wrote:The said hunter's armory:
http://tw.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... D%E5%A3%87

It's on the Taiwan server, so I don't know whether you could display it right. Anyway, my group does lack the mangle/trauma debuff and 3% damage buff. It now consists of :
blood dk (+10% AP),
tankadin (+3% crit),
disc priest,
healadin,
balance druid (+3% haste, +5% spell crit, 3% spell hit, +13% spell damage),
elemental shaman (+5% spell crit, +3% crit & 280 sp via wrath totem, 5% spell haste or 16% melee haste via air totem),
spriest (refreshment, 3% spell hit),
combat rogue (+4% physical damage),
unholy dk (+13% spell damage, +30% disease damage)
MM hunter (+10% AP).

The same kind of buffs/debuffs don't stack. The synergy of casters are somewhat good as we only lack the improved scorch kind debuff and 3% damage buff. Physical dpsers are at a less optimal situation, but I think at least sunder could provide them more dps.

And of course the rogue could also use expose armor, but I'm not sure whether he could remember to keep it up. Maybe I should talk about it with him.


Well firstly, "the rogue could also use expose armor, but I'm not sure whether he could remember to keep it up" isn't really expected, if the hunter isn't going BM, the rogue should definitely be exposing, his DPS loss will be less than the raids DPS gain. The question isn't whether you need a major armor debuff (you do) it's whether the rogue exposing is better for the raid or not than the hunter going BM with a worm.

Anyway using your linked hunter's equipped gear and spec, a fairly normal rotation and the raid buffs for the comp you list (I assumed untalented mana spring totem, 10% kings and untalented Might):

- MM spec without sunder: 9576.68 (8687.40 hunter, 889.29 pet)
- MM spec with expose from rogue: 10198.14 (9231.57 hunter, 966.56 pet)

Now, using a BM spec (http://www.wowhead.com/talent#ctbMzxtRfuoest0eVoZL:ibA), hastily regeared to reach hit cap without MM talents (I used the BoE Wodin's neck with a yellow hit gem - this would still leave him at 99.99% hit, so if you're very worried about tranq fails he'd have to change something else):

- BM with Raptor pet without sunder: 8714.75 (6159.54 hunter, 2555.22 pet)
- BM with Raptor pet with expose from rogue: 9442.58 (6672.40 hunter, 2770.19 pet)
- BM with worm pet doing sunders: 8736.18 (6628.39 hunter, 2107.79 pet)

So that's how the hunter's DPS would change on an ideal fight - if the rogue sundered he'd have 10198.14, if he sundered he'd have 8736.18. Note that the BM spec used gives up aimed shot and so is particularly gimped at doing damage on the move, even compared to BM's already gimp mobile damage - also the pet's damage will drop from moving as well, and the sunder effect takes a while to stack every target swap. The spec does add the 3% damage aura to your raid though, which the rogue can't provide.

Also, your unholy DK isn't bringing much to the raid other than the disease damage buff for the spriest to use - unless your shaman is dropping windfury (which would lose out on a spell haste buff apparently?), having the DK go frost to bring imp icy talons would significantly buff to the rogue's DPS (by like 1200 or something I think?), and buff the BM hunter's by about 200 (less for MM hunter).

edit: also as an aside, your MM hunter would likely gain dps by gearing differently - either by equipping T9 245/258 helm+legs for the 2pc, or equipping T10 264 helm+gloves for the 4pc. Also, using a different trinket than NES (even a BoE greatness deck), since he's very far above the soft-cap for NES.
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Re: BM hunters

Postby superworm » Mon May 10, 2010 12:31 am

fafhrd wrote:
superworm wrote:The said hunter's armory:
http://tw.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... D%E5%A3%87

It's on the Taiwan server, so I don't know whether you could display it right. Anyway, my group does lack the mangle/trauma debuff and 3% damage buff. It now consists of :
blood dk (+10% AP),
tankadin (+3% crit),
disc priest,
healadin,
balance druid (+3% haste, +5% spell crit, 3% spell hit, +13% spell damage),
elemental shaman (+5% spell crit, +3% crit & 280 sp via wrath totem, 5% spell haste or 16% melee haste via air totem),
spriest (refreshment, 3% spell hit),
combat rogue (+4% physical damage),
unholy dk (+13% spell damage, +30% disease damage)
MM hunter (+10% AP).

The same kind of buffs/debuffs don't stack. The synergy of casters are somewhat good as we only lack the improved scorch kind debuff and 3% damage buff. Physical dpsers are at a less optimal situation, but I think at least sunder could provide them more dps.

And of course the rogue could also use expose armor, but I'm not sure whether he could remember to keep it up. Maybe I should talk about it with him.


Well firstly, "the rogue could also use expose armor, but I'm not sure whether he could remember to keep it up" isn't really expected, if the hunter isn't going BM, the rogue should definitely be exposing, his DPS loss will be less than the raids DPS gain. The question isn't whether you need a major armor debuff (you do) it's whether the rogue exposing is better for the raid or not than the hunter going BM with a worm.

Anyway using your linked hunter's equipped gear and spec, a fairly normal rotation and the raid buffs for the comp you list (I assumed untalented mana spring totem, 10% kings and untalented Might):

- MM spec without sunder: 9576.68 (8687.40 hunter, 889.29 pet)
- MM spec with expose from rogue: 10198.14 (9231.57 hunter, 966.56 pet)

Now, using a BM spec (http://www.wowhead.com/talent#ctbMzxtRfuoest0eVoZL:ibA), hastily regeared to reach hit cap without MM talents (I used the BoE Wodin's neck with a yellow hit gem - this would still leave him at 99.99% hit, so if you're very worried about tranq fails he'd have to change something else):

- BM with Raptor pet without sunder: 8714.75 (6159.54 hunter, 2555.22 pet)
- BM with Raptor pet with expose from rogue: 9442.58 (6672.40 hunter, 2770.19 pet)
- BM with worm pet doing sunders: 8736.18 (6628.39 hunter, 2107.79 pet)

So that's how the hunter's DPS would change on an ideal fight - if the rogue sundered he'd have 10198.14, if he sundered he'd have 8736.18. Note that the BM spec used gives up aimed shot and so is particularly gimped at doing damage on the move, even compared to BM's already gimp mobile damage - also the pet's damage will drop from moving as well, and the sunder effect takes a while to stack every target swap. The spec does add the 3% damage aura to your raid though, which the rogue can't provide.

Also, your unholy DK isn't bringing much to the raid other than the disease damage buff for the spriest to use - unless your shaman is dropping windfury (which would lose out on a spell haste buff apparently?), having the DK go frost to bring imp icy talons would significantly buff to the rogue's DPS (by like 1200 or something I think?), and buff the BM hunter's by about 200 (less for MM hunter).

edit: also as an aside, your MM hunter would likely gain dps by gearing differently - either by equipping T9 245/258 helm+legs for the 2pc, or equipping T10 264 helm+gloves for the 4pc. Also, using a different trinket than NES (even a BoE greatness deck), since he's very far above the soft-cap for NES.


Thanks a lot for your detailed advice and the efforts you put into it. We constantly 3-heal all the content except LK and that's why the dk specs unholy (as we generally don't have a resto druid). I'm sure he could spec frost in his dual spec and maybe we should also try that. I also noticed that the hunter didn't use 4pc T10 and NES doesn't suit him well. He should also level his engineering to full to maximize his dps. I have sent him an in-game mail about these points.
If the rogue is keeping sunder up, I suppose it's a 5 cp expose armor every 30 seconds, if he doesn't use the glyph. That's 1 less 5 cp eviscerate per 30 seconds, which should be less than 1k dps. With your math it does seem that providing sunder via rogue is a better idea.
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Re: BM hunters

Postby fafhrd » Mon May 10, 2010 8:49 am

superworm wrote:Thanks a lot for your detailed advice and the efforts you put into it. We constantly 3-heal all the content except LK and that's why the dk specs unholy (as we generally don't have a resto druid). I'm sure he could spec frost in his dual spec and maybe we should also try that. I also noticed that the hunter didn't use 4pc T10 and NES doesn't suit him well. He should also level his engineering to full to maximize his dps. I have sent him an in-game mail about these points.
If the rogue is keeping sunder up, I suppose it's a 5 cp expose armor every 30 seconds, if he doesn't use the glyph. That's 1 less 5 cp eviscerate per 30 seconds, which should be less than 1k dps. With your math it does seem that providing sunder via rogue is a better idea.


Note also that the rogue doesn't need to be doing full point exposes on everything - for the valks for instance I imagine they die quickly enough that fewer points are sufficient - also he can put a full strength (but short duration) expose up within 2 gcds (2s for rogues). If you're counting on him to be a major stun on the valks this could get tricky though.
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