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[Class Balance] Thorns vs Ret Aura

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[Class Balance] Thorns vs Ret Aura

Postby sherck » Tue May 04, 2010 7:32 am

Okay, how exactly is this fair?

Ran a Mara run last night and got a Ret Pally as DPS; do Orange side Mara and look at Recount at the end and am shocked to see Ret Aura as my #2 damage source behind Maul.

I am used to seeing Thorns way down at the bottom of the list.

Look at Wowwiki and assume that the Ret Pally was actually Ret Spec with Sanctified Aura (due to his DPS which was very good for his level) and come to realize that his Ret Aura is doing 40 pts damage (base 27 + 13 for talent) per hit while my Thorns was doing only 12 points per hit.

WTF?

And looking at all the ranks of the two spells, except for low level (under 24) and max rank, Ret Aura is always doing more than twice as much damage as Thorns. They both scale the same with SP for increased damage.

I mean, I know Auras are an iconic ability of the Paladin class, but a Paladin can put on an aura (for zero mana cost) that can affect every single person in the party/raid. A Druid has to keep recasting Thorns on each person every 10 minutes and use up mana doing so. I realize that there is opportunity cost in that if a Pally is using Ret Aura, he is not using another aura and that Thorns is an "additional" ability with no down side to not casting it, but is that opportunity cost really worth twice as much damage?

I just don't see these two abilities being very well balanced. Between this and Consecration, no fricking wonder when I heal a Pally tank in their 40s that the mobs never come off of him while I, as a Bear, have issues with losing mobs if my Maul misses.

I am not really QQing but I don't see why these two abilites that seem to have nearly the same purpose are so imbalanced.

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Re: [Class Balance] Thorns vs Ret Aura

Postby Epimer » Tue May 04, 2010 7:49 am

sherck wrote:
I am not really QQing but I don't see why these two abilites that seem to have nearly the same purpose are so imbalanced.


A (very) quick browse of WorldofLogs shows Thorns and Retribution Aura both doing about the same amount of damage overall and per hit, with Thorns at ~9k and Retribution Aura at 8k damage done. Both work out to be around ~1% of total damage done for a tank on Festergut.

So I guess the answer is that nobody really cares if abilities are particularly balanced while levelling, because it's enough of a job to keep everything in line at level 80.
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Re: [Class Balance] Thorns vs Ret Aura

Postby Flex » Tue May 04, 2010 9:18 am

sherck wrote:I am not really QQing but I don't see why these two abilites that seem to have nearly the same purpose are so imbalanced.


Until the thorns is used by a Balance or Resto druid...
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Re: [Class Balance] Thorns vs Ret Aura

Postby Vorianloken » Tue May 04, 2010 12:20 pm

Flex wrote:
sherck wrote:I am not really QQing but I don't see why these two abilites that seem to have nearly the same purpose are so imbalanced.


Until the thorns is used by a Balance or Resto druid...

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Re: [Class Balance] Thorns vs Ret Aura

Postby Kelaan » Tue May 04, 2010 2:44 pm

sherck wrote:a Paladin can put on an aura (for zero mana cost) that can affect every single person in the party/raid. A Druid has to keep recasting Thorns on each person every 10 minutes and use up mana doing so.


Glyph Thorns (minor) to have a 60 minute duration.
Put thorns on the tank (me!). No one else is going to be getting hit enough to matter.

I understand the disparity of damage does exist. /shrug. I see it as gravy, just as the fiery blaze enchant I have is a small-damage amount of gravy which is great for aoe pickups. ;)
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Re: [Class Balance] Thorns vs Ret Aura

Postby sherck » Wed May 05, 2010 4:20 am

Kelaan wrote:Glyph Thorns (minor) to have a 60 minute duration.
Put thorns on the tank (me!). No one else is going to be getting hit enough to matter.


Just a note, the Glyph for Thorns only increases the duration if it is cast on the CASTER himself. When the Druid casts Thorns on anyone else (even another Druid) it is only a 10 min buff.

Flex wrote:Until the thorns is used by a Balance or Resto druid...


Really? The Brambles talent is in most Resto builds? I am not sure about that.

Epimer wrote:A (very) quick browse of WorldofLogs shows Thorns and Retribution Aura both doing about the same amount of damage overall and per hit, with Thorns at ~9k and Retribution Aura at 8k damage done.

So I guess the answer is that nobody really cares if abilities are particularly balanced while levelling, because it's enough of a job to keep everything in line at level 80.

[Bold mine]

Heh, probably true; level 80 balance is hard enough. I am a bit surprised at how close the two are and assume that your Thorns was cast by a Balance druid with the Brambles talent that increases it's damage by 75%.

At max rank, Thorns does 73 damage per hit plus any SP add (1pt damage per 30 SP). At max rank, Ret Aura does 112 damage per hit plus any SP add (1pt damage per 30 SP). Add in Sanctified Aura and Brambles with "standard" SP for both Balance druids and Ret Pallies and you get numbers that are pretty near each other.

I would hope, however, since they are rebalancing all abilites in Cata to scale with each level rather than having to learn new ranks every couple of levels that they balance out these abilites for leveling purposes as well.

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Re: [Class Balance] Thorns vs Ret Aura

Postby Rodi » Wed May 05, 2010 1:37 pm

sherck wrote:
Flex wrote:Until the thorns is used by a Balance or Resto druid...


Really? The Brambles talent is in most Resto builds? I am not sure about that.


No, but Resto and Balance Druids have considerably higher spellpower than Ferals.
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Re: [Class Balance] Thorns vs Ret Aura

Postby Levantine » Wed May 05, 2010 2:52 pm

Wtf? People take Brambles?
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Re: [Class Balance] Thorns vs Ret Aura

Postby hoho » Thu May 06, 2010 12:23 am

Levantine wrote:Wtf? People take Brambles?
Better than regen talents that you largely won't be needing at higher levels. IIRC that talent also increased your little trees damage a bit.
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Re: [Class Balance] Thorns vs Ret Aura

Postby 8bit » Thu May 06, 2010 1:23 am

Levantine wrote:Wtf? People take Brambles?
Yeah, I can't think of a single raid build that takes Brambles.
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Re: [Class Balance] Thorns vs Ret Aura

Postby Shamora » Thu May 06, 2010 9:24 am

Resto builds trying to get to Celestial Focus may end up taking one point in Brambles if only because there is nothing better to pick.
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