I'll just leave this here

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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:04 am


Can you add a link back to this thread in your post?
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:06 am

Fridmarr wrote:

Can you add a link back to this thread in your post?

I'd rather not edit, as I find it looks incredibly tacky and suspicious. Suppose I could add a second post below the wall of text?

Edit: I posted it after the wall.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:17 am

bldavis wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:Do you want me to post if for you? I've never posted on the official forums before, but I'm sure I can manage it. lol


do you really want to start another James vs Theckd shwodown?
That was pretty different because James had made a bunch of trolling posts here first. Honestly if you look at the content of the posts, James had no idea what he was talking about. He was merely using the work of others (who fortunately did eventually post in that thread) to say that Armor > Stamina, but he didn't understand why and by how much and was ultimately shown to be mostly wrong. In fact, he was completely unable to answer what the crossover point was, despite himself opting for stamina in places where it was more efficient than armor on his gear. At least when the folks that actually knew what they were talking about started posting, there was some value gained from the thread.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby tlitp » Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:18 am


OMFG, Nikachelle... WTF ?! You've even "Hi"-ed at the world. And I don't see no shades of pink in there. Disheartening. :mrgreen:

(who's this Theck guy that you're defending ?)
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:25 am

tlitp wrote:

OMFG, Nikachelle... WTF ?! You've even "Hi"-ed at the world. And I don't see no shades of pink in there. Disheartening. :mrgreen:

What? What's wrong with saying hi? And pink? What?

tlitp wrote:(who's this Theck guy that you're defending ?)]


And... what?
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby theckhd » Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:31 am

Yeah, thanks Nika. I wrote it up because I figured it would get back to him somehow, either by being linked here or reposted. I appreciate you taking the time to translate the formatting to the WoW forums rather than just doing a quick and dirty copy/paste job.

I'm certain that this won't turn into another heated insult-fest. For one thing, I think the numbers are pretty clear in this case. It's not a question of EH as a flawed metric, because we're looking at average DTPS, which is the relevant metric you'd consider for avoidance or armor. And since it's a direct comparison of agi vs. dodge (vs. possibly defense given his arguments), it's a straight up comparison of avoidance to avoidance+armor (and possibly avoidance+armor+block rating).

In any event, he brought up one question that I haven't looked at - how does block rating from defense compare to armor from agility, or more generally, how does a 10 def gem compare to a 10 agi gem for the purposes of damage reduction. It's an interesting question, though probably just a mostly-irrelevant intellectual pursuit. I doubt the discrepancy will be large in favor of either, certainly not by enough to make people consider gemming defense/stam in a red socket or agi/stam in a yellow socket. Since people already consider def/stam and agi/stam in yellow and red sockets respectively at the end-game (when your EH is well above the threshold for the fight), the result of the calculation won't change anything; it'll just give us more concrete numbers to work with.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:46 am

It would be nice if Allene would just post here. He doesn't understand how the DR works on defense, that defense itself isn't affected by the DR, but that the miss/dodge/parry it provides is. This discussion is going to be a pain if it persists only on the EU forums.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:54 am

Fridmarr wrote:It would be nice if Allene would just post here. He doesn't understand how the DR works on defense, that defense itself isn't affected by the DR, but that the miss/dodge/parry it provides is. This discussion is going to be a pain if it persists only on the EU forums.

I'd like to say more on the official forums, but I'm afraid it would just degenerate into a slagfest.

For the content that they are tanking, they really should not be arguing their position as their experience has absolutely no weight or bearing on what is only circumstantial to them.. In addition, their defense on gemming certain things is that "[they] like socket bonuses". You don't get much more irrational than that.

They have neven tanked any type of endgame. They haven't done Sarth, or KT, or Malygos, or Yogg-Saron, or even lolAnub'Arak and I sincerely doubt they will ever see the Lich King.

Their armory here: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... ds+Forever (for reference)
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby theckhd » Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:59 am

In case you're interested in more messenger-ing:

This is a point that I do not agree with, and will have to test before commenting, as I am under the impression that there is no diminishing returns for Defense Rating (Wowwiki supports my claim). The diminishing returns that exist are for individual stats (Miss, Dodge, Parry, and Block), and my comment regarding Defense Rating being more effective than those has that in account. The fact that Defense Rating spreads its weight through all the stats makes it less affected by diminishing returns than Dodge Rating.

You are correct that it is the individual stats that experience the diminishing returns. There is no DR on defense rating itself (i.e. every 4.92 defense rating gives 1 defense skill). The point is that 1 defense skill does not give 0.04% dodge/miss/parry. At high gear levels, it gives much less because of the DR effects on each individual stat.

For example, at 800 dodge, 400 parry, and 700 defense rating, here's the amount of avoidance that an additional 1 defense skill (4.91850 rating, for a total of 704.91850) gives you:
dodge: 0.0256%
parry: 0.0239%
miss: 0.0222%
total: 0.0717%

By comparison, if you calculate the net avoidance you get by going up to 804.91850 dodge rating, you get:
dodge: 0.0696%
rest unchanged

The difference there is .0021% avoidance, which means the dodge gem gives you 98% of the avoidance the defense gem does. Now those numbers are somewhat hypothetical, but they serve to demonstrate the point. If you use slightly lower dodge rating, or slightly higher parry/defense rating, the parry and miss DR curves will be more punishing, weakening the value of the defense gem compared to the dodge gem for pure avoidance. The defense gem does give you the additional block rating of course, which is worth considering in some contexts.

Furthermore, Defense Rating is more effective per point than Dodge Rating alone. Right now (as far as I know), Dodge Rating is roughly at a 45/1% rate, whereas Defense Rating is roughly at 41/1% rate, and this is if we disregard Block. With Block, Defense Rating becomes even more effective at a rough 31/1% rating.

Your numbers are right for pure avoidance before the diminishing returns for each individual stat are considered (~45 dodge for 1% avoidance, 41 defense for 1% total avoidance). However after DR, they're much closer, as you can see from my example above. I don't think it's fair to include the block rating, as that's not an avoidance increase. In a conversation about avoidance it's at most a fringe benefit, much like the armor from agility. I will agree with you that it's a consideration for total damage reduction though.

Should these values be incorrect, feel free to correct them at Wowwiki. I know for a fact that the Defense Rating values that I gave are correct though.

Also, with Redoubt, a libram that procs 200 Dodge Rating, and a weapon enchant that procs variable amounts of Parry Rating, are people really feeling that challenged to become nearly unhittable? And is an unavoided hit once every blue moon that much of a concern?

Unhittable in ICC is a lot harder. Using the values I gave above (800/400/700 dodge/parry/defense), 20% combined dodge+parry+miss+block takes around 1000 defense rating at current gear levels. In other words, you'd need to boost your defense rating to 1700 to make up that 20% gap. And that's using defense, which is the most efficient way to do so thanks to block (which has no DR). Trying to do so in a mix of defense/parry/dodge like we have to with gear is much much worse.

quick hand-check: you get 0.07% avoidance and 0.04% block from 1 defense skill, for a total of 0.11% combined "unhit." It would take 181.8 defense skill to make 20%, which is ~890 rating. This is a lowball estimate since we're completely neglecting the increased DR we see as we add that 890 rating, so it shouldn't surprise us that the accurate calculation comes out closer to 1000.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:01 pm

To prove someone wrong? I'd like nothing more. ;)
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:03 pm

Thanks for formatting your post that way Theck. :)

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.htm ... 4&sid=1#22
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby theckhd » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:05 pm

Nikachelle wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:It would be nice if Allene would just post here. He doesn't understand how the DR works on defense, that defense itself isn't affected by the DR, but that the miss/dodge/parry it provides is. This discussion is going to be a pain if it persists only on the EU forums.

I'd like to say more on the official forums, but I'm afraid it would just degenerate into a slagfest.

For the content that they are tanking, they really should not be arguing their position as their experience has absolutely no weight or bearing on what is only circumstantial to them.. In addition, their defense on gemming certain things is that "[they] like socket bonuses". You don't get much more irrational than that.

They have neven tanked any type of endgame. They haven't done Sarth, or KT, or Malygos, or Yogg-Saron, or even lolAnub'Arak and I sincerely doubt they will ever see the Lich King.

Their armory here: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... ds+Forever (for reference)

Yeah, let's not let this degenerate into that sort of discussion either. First-hand tanking experience in ICC is important in theorycrafting, but it's entirely possible to do all of the calculations without stepping foot into ICC itself. I would hope that if I were to quit the game tomorrow, you guys would still trust the numbers I crank out for Ruby Sanctum level calculations.

That said, I'd be a lot more careful to provide disclaimers along with my numbers, and appeal to the guys I trust in the trenches (Mel, Wrathy, etc.) to give me feedback on how relevant those numbers are, and what sort of numbers would be relevant to them.

In any event, I think this is simply a case of limited scope. They outgear the only content they see, and that's the lens through which they see the game right now. The leap in mechanics changes between heroics and raid bosses seems obvious to us, but to someone who's never made that leap themselves, it wouldn't be as apparent.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:48 pm

Because I'm baffled by the fact that the standard Stamina/Strength gems were not considered to go along with Defense Rating, which as stated several times, is a lot more effective than both Dodge and Agility. One really has to wonder why with so much avoidance in the game from trinkets, librams, and enchants people aim for Agility, of all things, to get a little bit of survivability.

As I've stated on my previous post, with a talent that procs +30% block on 10% of the attacks, a libram that procs 200 Dodge Rating and a weapon enchant that procs a stackable amount of Parry Rating I really have to wonder whether even that is not enough to get nearly unhittable and whether people aren't overestimating the danger of one unavoided attack once every blue moon.
Your assertion is clearly not true, the math has been done and even posted specifically here. Defense provides a very small amount more avoidance than dodge/agi without the benefit of the armor from Agi. However, defense goes in Yellow/Green gems/sockets and using Stamina Defense gems are pretty common in those colors. Strength Stamina gems would be less mitigation than Agility Stamina gems when you consider the armor and avoidance from the agility, so in the red sockets you'll see Dodge Stamina or Agility Stamina as the best choices when getting a socket bonus.

Don't discount that armor from Agi, remember mitigation like block is taken AFTER the armor mitigation, if something his hitting me now for 30k (I have ~70% armor mitigation) then the swing was for 100k, and that 5 block value is accounting for .005% mitigation. Armor mitigation will scale with the hit size, and block won't.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:51 pm

You want that posted too? If you want something copied over, just let me know, but mark it like "for posting, Nika", or somethng just so I know.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:52 pm

Nikachelle wrote:You want that posted too? If you want something copied over, just let me know, but mark it like "for posting, Nika", or somethng just so I know.

Please, and I'll note that in the future.
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